This is basically EMOTIONAL CROSSFIT, Okay!?

Ever stare at your Word doc and think, “I could’ve taken up pottery instead”? Same. In this week’s episode, Cait and Jenna dive into the chaotic highs and lows of the writing life, from crying over semicolons to calling a night of edits “fun.” Why do writers willingly sign up for this emotional rollercoaster? Why don’t we choose hobbies that don’t require plot holes or three different drafts titled FINAL FINAL?

We break down:
✍️ Why writing feels both magical and mildly unhinged
💀 The emotional tax of revising (and why we keep coming back)
🤣 The hilarious moments every writer knows too well
🔥 How to stay inspired when the work feels impossible
📚 Why we choose storytelling over literally any other hobby

If you’re a writer who’s ever questioned your life choices mid-scene… this episode will make you feel seen, supported, and maybe a little less alone.

🎧 Listen in for writing tips, relatable chaos, and a strong reminder that if this is your hobby… you’re in good company.

Transcript

Cait (00:00)
I have a question for you.

Jenna G Judith (00:01)
Okay, what's the question?

Cait (00:05)
you ever just stared at your Word document and just thought, I could have other hobbies?

Jenna G Judith (00:14)
almost every single day.

between having kids, having a job, and writing, and this, and being a person and having a social life? Like, what are we doing to ourselves?

Cait (00:35)
I don't know, I'm like why can't I just like pick up a racket, put a cute outfit on, and just go to the park and play pickleball for an hour and then I leave and I'm done playing pickleball. And that's it. I mean, I will say the people who play pickleball tend to talk about pickleball a lot, but I would probably

probably not talk about it in the way that I talk about the people that I created in my head that I feel like are real people. And I'm telling my husband, like, I'm like spilling the tea on like these real people. It's psychotic. No other hobby.

Jenna G Judith (01:11)
Yeah,

we don't have hobbies. People say, that's so cute, like writing is such a nice hobby for you. I'm like, hobbies are supposed to be like 100 % fun.

Cait (01:24)
They're supposed to be fun. Yeah. I've had this thing at work or like in your office, like, or at work. Not a lot of people know that you do this on the side or whatever. But when my supervisor found out about she was like, that's so nice that you have like a little outlet that's yours. like, I'm like, are you kidding? Like, this is, I was like, this is what keeps me sane from all the other stuff. But it also is the thing making me.

Jenna G Judith (01:35)
Right, yeah.

Right.

Cait (01:54)
insane.

Jenna G Judith (01:54)
it's a weird part of our brains where we love to punish ourselves because we are creative individuals and we can't not do the things. It's like a compulsion.

Cait (02:05)
The other thing, see, like, I think that you're very creative. I think that, whoever, you're creating something out of nothing, as in, you are, like, building a world and coming up with your own rules. And I think that is the most creative thing on the planet. And I'm literally writing real life. Like, I'm more or less, like, taking real life.

Jenna G Judith (02:11)
It's true. I am.

Cait (02:32)
and I'm tweaking it to fulfill the character's journey or the hero's journey, whatever the hell you wanna call it. I'm just like, let me put this real thing that happened into this formula and maybe people will think it's.

You are literally creating worlds and characters and I don't know, you're somebody who's out there doing that, you are a creative person.

Jenna G Judith (02:54)
I am a psycho, let's be honest, because I call that right. Like, this, this is therapy.

Cait (02:58)
Yes, if you haven't gathered that in this two episodes.

Jenna G Judith (03:08)
little ASMR of the ice cubes, but this is therapy. ⁓ And so is writing, unpacking all of the feelings, putting it into a world that doesn't exist and ⁓ calling it a day.

Cait (03:24)
I'm always curious what was the thing that you were like, I have to sit down and write this book. And I'm gonna, because that's always the decision, right? Like when you decide like, here's the book, okay, I'm sitting down and I'm starting the hobby. Like this is my first day at the gym, not the same, but like, I'm gonna go do the thing. But like, what's the thing that's like, I need to go do it.

Jenna G Judith (03:47)
This is gonna sound so egotistical, but I'm just gonna say it. It's because I am an avid reader. Like, I think I have read 45 books this year and at least half of them, I'm like, I could have done a better job. Like, it's not because they're bad, it's because I'm like...

Cait (04:09)
Okay, work. Cheers.

Jenna G Judith (04:15)
have those skills. I can do that and I can entertain people just as well as that person.

Cait (04:23)
But like, I want to

that. Yeah, like that's what's driving me to, I can do that.

Jenna G Judith (04:27)
So,

fun fact, I don't think I've ever told you this. I started writing my book off of a dare from my best friend Jenny. we were, I think we had just gotten done reading ⁓ Onyx Storm, which is the third book in the fourth wing series by Rebecca Yaros. And we got done reading it. And we were like...

Cait (04:49)
⁓

Jenna G Judith (04:55)
You how you're in a show hole after you get done watching like like binging like a Netflix series? It was like that. So we got done reading that book together and I'm just like.

Cait (05:00)
Yes.

We'll right back.

Jenna G Judith (05:07)
I could do that and I wasn't bored by any means, but she's like, I dare you to do that. I'm like, sure. So she's really big into, Dramione fan fiction. And so she started writing like just a couple like chapters of a Dramione fan fiction. So then I started writing my book and she's like, holy shit, you need to keep going. I'm like, okay.

Cait (05:24)
That was awesome.

That's awesome.

Jenna G Judith (05:34)
So I did and it was really fun and I think I literally wrote the first draft in like four weeks. I wrote like a hundred thousand words in four weeks.

Cait (05:42)
⁓ That's

how I feel sometimes. feel like, like I either like sit down and I write for 10 hours or I don't do anything.

Jenna G Judith (05:52)
Don't,

no. And the same way, it's like feast or famine. There's really no in between.

Cait (05:59)
And that's why when you come out of it, I think too, if you're a mom, like, I don't know about you, but I have such a hard time transitioning from writing for eight hours or like that whole day that I took to do it while the kids were at school or whatever. And then into like coming out of this world and needing to be a mom. And that's why I think that we're always like, if I

all the time in the world, would be so nice, because I'm somebody who would stay up all night for weeks, like go on a bender. I would be on a bender for weeks.

Jenna G Judith (06:31)
Yeah.

Like, this kind of bender?

Cait (06:44)
Yeah, because eventually, you have to, you have to unwind from that. And I think that people really take for granted how hard it is to unwind from, from whatever you're doing. I think even when I was acting, like coming off of a show, finishing a show, to think of like just going to bed or going home and like, you can't, like you can't, you have to do it. And like, ⁓

Honestly, a drink helps. Like a drink is like you need to just, and that's why we're here.

Jenna G Judith (07:15)
Hahaha

Cait (07:16)
And that's why we do that. Because you do need somebody. You need that person to help you unwind. Afterwards, and my poor husband is just like, I said it before, he's on the line of fire. As soon as I'm done and I need a transition, I need to have a drink. I need to find something to relax me in order to transition to the next responsibility in life.

Jenna G Judith (07:16)
Cue the margarita.

Yeah.

Okay, so tell me why did you start writing and please tell me it's just as egotistical as my burp, my reason.

Cait (07:49)
I think ⁓ I started writing the book that I'm querying now ⁓ when I was going through a really bad breakup. Yeah, it was like a way. Yeah, I started writing it then. It was like 10 years ago. And actually my now husband and I were, it was when we first started dating and we were a few months in and we were long distance and it was really hard. ⁓ And

Jenna G Judith (07:58)
You started writing it then?

Cait (08:17)
we broke up and I, I'm just like, I'm a journaler. I've always been a journaler like since I could write. And so, yeah, I don't know. Something I was so upset about it. It was like the worst feeling in the entire world that I literally sat down and I wrote this scene that used to be the opening scene of the book. It's not anymore. Now it's a flashback, but I wrote the scene where she is on this magical date with this guy, like her first love.

and they're talking about where they see themselves in the future. And he's like, where do you see yourself five years from now? Blah, blah, blah. And all of their plans are together. And it's this wonderful, they're sitting on the beach in the Cape, and it's beautiful, it's graduation night, they have their whole future ahead of them. And it's all those feelings that you get at that age, at 22, when you're just like, oh my God, the future, I can see it. I have it planned out.

If you don't have it planned out, it's so exciting that you don't have it planned out. You're just like, I'm so excited for what comes next. like, you don't see all the shit that's about to happen.

Jenna G Judith (09:23)
So much shit.

Cait (09:25)
so much.

So yeah, I don't know. So I sat down and I wrote this like scene of just wanting to go back to this conversation that we had had, not knowing all the things that were about to happen. And that's where I started the book for the longest time it started there. ⁓ And it's like now adapted. so like, anyway, yeah, that's how this this particular book started. But I have a hard time if I'm not like,

needing to get something out, it's really hard for me to like sit down and create something.

Jenna G Judith (09:59)
That's funny because when I am really feeling very big emotions, as I like to call my four year old, I'm like, when you're having really, really big emotions, what do we do with them? We name them and we do something physical with them. And that's what I do. Like it used to be, ⁓ newsflash, not an athletic person. I am a very creative individual.

Cait (10:21)
Thank ⁓

You're right.

Jenna G Judith (10:29)
Team sports, not my thing. Fear of letting people down. That's why I always did individual ones.

Cait (10:35)
⁓

my god, that's what it is, isn't it? What it is, is the fear of letting people down. my god, years of trying to unlock why I was so anxious in the outfield.

Jenna G Judith (10:38)
Yes!

Yes!

Cait (10:50)
Holy shit! You just... just... You made it all make so much sense. Yeah.

Jenna G Judith (10:50)
You poor soul, you poor soul.

You know, that's what I'm here for. I am here to not only enlighten you, but entertain you.

Cait (11:04)
literally that. So yeah, we discovered this major plot point.

Jenna G Judith (11:10)
Yeah, okay, yeah, anyways, put that in your next book. I have, when I have big feelings, I need to do, I have to make it into something. So big feelings of ego were driven, made the first book. Big feelings of I'm really frustrated with my fucking life right now made my second book. And then, cause the second book was

Cait (11:23)
you

Jenna G Judith (11:37)
I'm not done with it because I don't know how to end it. Weird. ⁓ But it is a contemporary romance of like a second chance romance and happily married for 10 years. But it was like a moment of frustration of you have two kids and you're in the shit storm and like you don't like your partner that day because everything's fucking hard.

Cait (12:00)
So yeah, but I think even in your fantasy stuff, does sound like you pull a lot from real life, like in your themes and all the things that you want the book to present.

Jenna G Judith (12:08)
Mm-hmm.

yeah. Like

I could easily take the themes from my fantasy books, plop them right into contemporary and it would still hold, which makes me think, and this total side note is like, what if I rewrote, because I'm a glutton for punishment, what if I rewrote them in contemporary fantasy? Kind of like Sarah J. Maas's Crescent City.

Cait (12:20)
too.

Jenna G Judith (12:36)
where it's still magic, it's still fantasy, but there's like contemporary elements. And I'm like, do I wanna hurt myself that bad?

Cait (12:45)
I know. That's kind of the craziest

thing about what we do, as well as that, you, and if this is you, let us know, because I'm always amazed at how willing we are to go back into our own work and change it.

Jenna G Judith (12:55)
I

Yes, and why is it? I think it's twofold. Like you, changed your beginning of your first book because someone's told you to. Someone said it doesn't feel like it's starting in the right place. Same thing happened with me.

Cait (13:06)
the time!

Yeah, it was a trend of

notes. Yeah, yeah. But I had no issue. I always thought I was going to. I always thought, my god, I really feel finished. I'll go in, I'll make some minor changes and whatever, but never something huge. And then once I did, was so, it wasn't, once it was actually in the edit, I didn't care as much as I thought I was going to care. You know, like, yeah.

Jenna G Judith (13:41)
Me too, it's like you,

it becomes this mass of feelings and then it becomes, like we were talking about last, I think the other day, of it becomes like a physical product that you wanna continue to make better.

Cait (13:58)
Yeah, you just want it to be better because every time, what is like, we need to come up with like a word in the English language for when you write something and you feel like it's like Shakespearean and then you go back even just like a day later or two days later and you're like, this is a five year old writing. What is wrong with me?

Jenna G Judith (14:24)
You know what that's actually

Cait (14:25)
There's no word for

it. Like, what's the word for it?

Jenna G Judith (14:28)
I'm ask chat GPT. Okay. What is the word called?

Cait (14:35)
for this phenomenon.

I had a

draft I gave out to people to read.

Jenna G Judith (14:46)
And I'm like,

I'm so embarrassed.

Cait (14:49)
yes, i would be- i went back a month later and i was like- i was crying to myself and i was like, people were reading this

Jenna G Judith (14:57)
Okay, it's thinking. ⁓ damn it. I have it on the really hard thinking chat, GPT, so it's actually gonna give me a real answer. Ooh, okay, we have some options, people. Draft euphoria.

Cait (14:58)
hate this. Why do we do this?

Okay.

Shit, that's good.

Jenna G Judith (15:12)
draft blindness, the taste gap which is from I it's an Ira Glasses term, your taste outpaces your current output.

Cait (15:22)
Okay, leave it to ira glass to make me feel uncomfortable.

Jenna G Judith (15:26)
Absolutely, killing your darlings moment, realizing that the brilliant bits need to go. Yeah, I ca-

Cait (15:32)
disagree with

that. I think darlings are things that you never ever ever in a million years want to let go, but you have

Jenna G Judith (15:38)
I've murdered so many of, or either murdered or eliminated completely from this story. And I'm like, I'm gonna, okay, it's like that Sims moment where you pick someone up and you put them in ⁓ like a holding pattern until you can deal with them. I do that.

Cait (15:40)
Yeah, all the time.

Jenna G Judith (15:54)
Am I the only masochist that did that?

Cait (15:56)
Yeah, I just want a happy family living a happy life together.

Jenna G Judith (15:57)
Yeah.

You didn't purposefully put people in moments of conflict just to see how they would react?

Cait (16:07)
I think I was just playing house with my sins. But there's gonna be people here that really like that if I'm with you.

Jenna G Judith (16:11)
Okay, see this is why you write contemporary.

like to make up my own rules.

You know that meme where it's like, am I the drama? No, I'm not the drama. I just like to witness others drama. And I think that's why I love writing so much, because I make it and then I watch shit happen because they're real in my head.

Cait (16:33)
It's hilarious.

Jenna G Judith (16:34)
I'm a psycho,

Cait (16:34)
What

What was the first one again?

Jenna G Judith (16:37)
Draft euphoria or draft blindness.

Cait (16:38)
kinda like that one.

Draft Euphoria, where you're like, this is, I did it. I fucking did it, guys. And you're like, everybody come see how good I look.

Jenna G Judith (16:45)
Yup.

Ooh, ooh, okay, okay, here's some, see, here's some funnier ones.

Genius hangover. Wow. Yeah, oh.

Cait (16:57)
Okay, I'm in my genius hangover.

That could be like a, Okay, like it.

Jenna G Judith (17:05)
Yup.

Cait (17:06)
I see where it's going. see where

Jenna G Judith (17:07)
⁓

Cait (17:11)
You bored?

This is why we came here.

Jenna G Judith (17:14)
Anyways, okay, let's go with, ⁓ what did I say? Keyboard catfish.

Cait (17:19)
Keyboard catfish, I like that.

I'm also gonna use genius hangover, think, regular conversation.

Jenna G Judith (17:26)
or in your

Cait (17:28)
It's a genius hangover yeah My character does not ever feel like a genius, but... because she's me. I do, I do. I definitely have moments where I'm like, hell yeah. High five and what's...

and then you read it two days later and it's like...

Jenna G Judith (17:49)
garbage.

Cait (17:50)
⁓ Who the hell do think you are?

Jenna G Judith (17:53)
Right, like someone just lit a dumpster on fire and said woohoo. Yeah.

Cait (17:55)
It's totally, it's totally devastating. Does anybody

have this in any other hobbies? Please tell me.

Jenna G Judith (18:02)
Please, please inform me if any other hobbies don't have this happen because I need that as a hobby.

Cait (18:09)
Exactly.

⁓ This was supposed to be an episode about...

the pain and the joys of what we do, of our hobby. ⁓

Jenna G Judith (18:22)
I think I

already touched on my joy and that is the joy of manipulation.

Cait (18:26)
You're clearly watching other

people's pain.

Jenna G Judith (18:29)
Like if people, after watching this episode, if they don't think that I am an absolute psychopath, it will be a blessing from the heavens because I don't

Cait (18:30)
I it.

No!

Jenna G Judith (18:39)
I don't know what you see in me, Cait

Cait (18:41)
I see a lot of you guys on social media and I feel like there is a lot of you out there who have the same the same types of feelings about their characters. Like they love to put them in drama. They love to see how they're going to react in certain situations. And I think it's fascinating. I just have not experienced that euphoria yet of seeing that happen. I think because my first

book is literally like my main character is me more or less. Yeah, I mean, it's not like a memoir by any means, but it's, I'm writing it from my, to be like me. So I don't, it's like, it's like too personal. Like I don't want to see myself in these situations. I've seen myself in most of these situations.

Jenna G Judith (19:14)
you.

You know the outcome already.

Cait (19:32)
I know

pretty much what the outcome is. ⁓ Okay. Why? Why do we continue to do it? Why do we continue to do it? Why do you continue to do it? Why are we here?

Jenna G Judith (19:37)
Okay.

both an existential question and I think because I have like very, very serious, like I'm not like joking around. I think because I have a part of my brain that wants affirmation that I did a good job. Like I want

Cait (19:50)
It is very existential.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jenna G Judith (20:14)
someone to pat me on the head and say, great job.

Also you wrecked me.

I want someone to get done reading my book and say.

did not... okay this is when you are when you are crafting your world it is the biggest compliment in the world to hear someone say I would not have expected that character to react that way but I'm so happy they did.

Cait (20:41)
That's cool. That's really cool.

Jenna G Judith (20:43)
And that only happens in really, really good fantasy novels. Like, or even just romance novels in general. Like if you see like the average like character arc of someone in a romance novel, like third act breakup, like,

Cait (20:51)
you

Jenna G Judith (20:58)
because nothing in my head in the world I make pushes someone to lash out more than a third act breakup both reader and fictional character

Cait (21:13)
I could see that, I could see that. Everyone, I feel like everybody listening is gonna know exactly what you're talking about and then there's gonna be like.

the 3 % of me that are like, totally, that are like historical fiction nerds are like.

Jenna G Judith (21:21)
There's gonna be uproar.

Historical fiction is something I never could write because I like to bend the rules far too much.

Cait (21:35)
Yeah, that's and I think that that's that's definitely the point, right? Like that's why you do it. That's why and that's exciting. Yeah.

Jenna G Judith (21:41)
Yeah, that's true.

Okay, so I know your first book was cathartic.

Cait (21:47)
Mm-hmm.

Jenna G Judith (21:47)
But

why do you keep writing after that first one?

Cait (21:52)
I mean, I'm continuing to write things that are like real time of my life. So it's like a way that I feel like it sounds so like therapy and so like, which I never thought it was that stereotypical, but now that I'm saying it out loud, I'm like, ⁓ it is. It's just like, yeah, like I'm, it's like I have to write it in order to like figure it all out or something in order to like explore like.

Jenna G Judith (22:18)
Mm-hmm.

Cait (22:21)
that myself, ⁓ maybe talking it out doesn't happen or help. I don't know. But yeah, it's like I have to relive it through some way or some realm that helps me explore it for myself. I don't know. It isn't the way I'm going.

Jenna G Judith (22:41)
I like that.

It's like no matter.

Yeah, and it's almost like no matter how expensive your therapist, it's never gonna be like this. 

Cait (22:53)
No, it's not. And

I'm so interested when people started to read it. It was so weird. It was so weird for me. Yeah. It was so weird because I feel like as I had been writing it for so long that like all of these things seem so personal and because it's obviously like a lot of it has happened and I'm going to write continue to write about things that have that have actually happened or a version of how it happened. But like it once people started to like ask me questions, I was like, how did you

Jenna G Judith (22:59)
Really?

Cait (23:22)
Wait, how did you know that?

Jenna G Judith (23:26)
⁓ it was like a really deep personal thing that they're asking you about. You're like.

Cait (23:28)
Yeah,

or even like a character that I made up that I had never, nobody had ever like met before. And then they were like, my God, Jan. And I was like, how do know Jan? How do you know Jan? It was, yeah, it was really weird for me when people started reading it. So I can't imagine having it like out in the world. And that's like what gets me the most excited, honestly, is getting it out in the world for.

people who aren't my coworkers.

to read.

Jenna G Judith (24:01)
So you have a group of coworkers too that are like your biggest cheerleaders.

Cait (24:04)
my gosh, yes. They're so excited. They're the best. And that's been awesome to have, like, yeah, your people, your community. ⁓

Jenna G Judith (24:16)
Love that.

Cait (24:17)
Yeah, and that's why we're here for it. That's why we're here for it. I also think that like, like, this is something that, and if you're listening, I'm assuming that you do this or you do something creative that like, you'll have it forever. Even if you have kids when the kids are gone, you know, you're old and maybe retired and you're just not gonna ever be that.

Bored, retired person way too involved in their kids' lives and marriages. And grandkids, you're gonna have a healthy balance of doing stuff that fills you up even in older age. And you're always gonna have something that takes up your time and is something that you enjoy and brings you happiness.

I love thinking about that. It makes me less scared about thinking about my kids growing up and leaving. And I'm like, OK, I'm going to be fine. I'm just going to continue to do this.

Jenna G Judith (25:23)
Yeah. Yeah, I don't.

Cait (25:24)
I know we have the

same kind of thing. We have kids like similar ages.

Jenna G Judith (25:27)
as a parent, you never want to have your full identity in your children. So I think us finding like our identity in some of our writing, you quite literally your identity, ⁓ you want a full a hundred percent on that one, full send. ⁓ But I think it's healthy.

Maybe not my version of like, you know, manipulation. I want to play puppet master, but yours for sure. 100 % healthy. Mine, maybe not. Jury's still out.

Cait (25:54)
I think in your own way, you're

doing the same thing though. And that's what the part that brings you joy is like creating and seeing the worlds and yeah, coming up with the rules and that's so cool. I'm amazed. I tell you all the time that I'm amazed in anybody who's listening that writes fantasy. Like that shit is, that is impressive.

Jenna G Judith (25:57)
I hope so.

I'm proud of my spreadsheets, that's for sure.

So I know why you write, I know why I write, but what about you? What keeps you being creative? Just share it and we'll probably put it in the next episode. So tell us.

Cait (26:35)
Yeah, and we need

to share everybody's stuff because I think that we are like, being creative can be such an isolating experience and we're all doing it for very similar reasons and you probably don't even realize

Jenna G Judith (26:50)
so just take a beat, take a sip, and just tell us why you do what you do.

Cait (26:55)
Well, cheers, See you next time.

Jenna G Judith (26:56)
Cheers, because we all

need more of this.