Trad vs Indie Publishing: No Facts Just Feelings

Traditional publishing vs indie publishing, how do you choose as a writer when you’re burned out, mid-edits, or stuck in the querying spiral?

In this episode of Margs & Manuscripts, we talk honestly about querying agents, full requests, developmental editors, self-publishing, creative control, money, and the emotional whiplash of publishing decisions.

We’re not experts...we’re writers in the middle of it. If you’re finishing a manuscript, questioning traditional publishing, or considering indie publishing, you’re not alone.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

What are you reading right now? I haven't asked you that in so long. Usually you post about it, but I haven't seen you post about anything.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Yeah. Well, it's this like weird conundrum right now. Uh I was telling Cody about this. Like I feel Do you ever feel like you're in like a show hole but with books?

SPEAKER_00 0:20

Like you can't get motivated to read or like you just finish an or like I can't f I can't find the right vibe. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's kind of what I figured. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Yeah. Like Freddie perfectly fine semi-dark romance. And I don't know, wasn't like like it was fine. I liked it. I liked the style of writing. Because my time is so limited. Because we are because we are crazy people and we're like, hey, we don't have enough to do. Let's just start a podcast. Yes. Like my cousin texted me over Christmas after she got like our Christmas card. And she's like, you started a podcast, like what and you're writing books, and you're reading, and you have two small children. Like, what are you doing? Like, I am highly motivated, highly motivated to work on my book. And the first few rounds of edits went really fast and super easy for me. It was very decisive. Now, this like next, this current batch of editing I'm doing is like the really intense, you need to make sure it's working. And like there's no plot holes and everything is meshing and like the pace is correct. So it's really intimidating for me. Very motivated to do it, but I'm I'm just like, I need the dedicated time to do it. And I'm like, oh, I'll just like take a week off work and like do it. But then Mackenzie's only has like half days at preschool. And then it's like, oh, so you really only get three hours out of crack. Woo. So then I'm like, okay, maybe I'll just read some books instead, just to like keep the brain going. And then it's like, oh, I can't find the right vibe, or like, I don't want to get like too invested, or I don't want to read a book that's like too close to my book. And it's oh, I'm just like a hot mess when it comes to the literary world, like this past probably like month.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

So I think that's super relatable because like it's really hard to finish one book and pick up another book at in general. Like I think like Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

It's just really hard to go from one to the other. That's I just started doing it in like different modes. So I feel like I'm easing into it more. So like I'll have like one audiobook going while I'm like when I'm in the car or like doing dishes while I'm like physically reading another book. And it's either like now that I have the Kindle, I'm either reading it the actual book, or I'm reading it on my Kindle. So I feel like I'm like trying to switch, constantly have like something on rotation so that I'm like not feeling like completely closed one door and like oop, I don't know. I'm just like playing mind games myself.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

I was looking at like the novel-bound recap of like their retreat in Oregon. Was it Oregon or Washington?

SPEAKER_00 3:28

It was Oregon. I think it was like the Oregon Coast.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

I know. I'm like, oh, that looked beautiful. I know. And then I found another one. I'll send a link to it. Like both of them are sold out for the year. Like one's in British Columbia and the other one's in Iceland. And right, no big deal. And it's just gorgeous settings, like both of which would fit my create, my creative brain like perfectly. My gosh, yeah. And I'm just like, I need I need to go away and write. I need to go away and write. And then my cousins are all like, because we do like a cousins, we're trying to do a cousins trip every year. So they're like, let's go to a writer's conference with Jenna and just like hang out while she's doing her thing. I'm like, no, like literally, that is the absolute opposite of what I want to do when I'm at a writer's conference, is hang out with my cousins.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Or like hang out like too much. Like, or like have stuff you feel like you need to. It's almost like good to go to places like that aren't as stimulating too, because you feel like you want to do so much, probably. Like if you go somewhere like Icelanders that you're like, I'm here, I want to see things, and do it, but it's like you should be in the zone the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

So now I'm in the let's research some remote cabins in like the UP of Michigan where I can just be alone for even just three full days alone would be a miracle for my writing. No, I'm I totally understand that. But it's like, when am I gonna have the time? Who's gonna watch the kids? It's like this, it's this whole like mind fuck that is just constant in my brain lately. And like I feel like I'm pulling a kate and I'm having like insomnia and I'm like staying up till 2 a.m. like doing God knows what. I feel like that means you're close though. Oh, really? Tell me more.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

I feel like that means we're close because I feel like that's when I got to the end, that's where I was. Like I was just in this place of just like, I feel the end, like I can feel it if I just had this amount of time, or if I just did this, I'm up at 2 a.m. like writing notes on my phone because that's the time my like my mind is like the ideas are coming or the fixes are coming, and like things are like going fast.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

And it wasn't like shut off about it.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Yeah. I feel like that was the time I was like, I gotta do it, like I just gotta sit down and do it. And it like it was it was coming to me way quicker than it ever had. And that was when I finished it. And it was like this time last year, because I finished it in over the summer, but there was a point this time last year where like I decided to pick it up and finish it. Like, or like I was like, I'm gonna go back to this book and I'm gonna do it and committed to it.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

That's where I'm at. I'm like, yeah, I wanna commit to it. I just have to find the time.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

It'll you'll you'll find it. I think I think that it's just where your brain is at. You gotta like ride the wave, you gotta let it come, and like you gotta just be up at 2 a.m. writing the notes and you'll finish it by by yeah. I think it was by May I had I had it with beta readers.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

That's honestly, I that is really weird because I texted my friends just yesterday. I'm like, May is my goal of having beta readers. And so shout out to anyone that if you love a good romanticy that has like some like thriller plot line subgenre, would you like to be a beta reader, please?

SPEAKER_00 7:10

And be kind. It wasn't until basically a year ago that I got on the online community at all. Yeah. Um, or like started even talking to people on Instagram or or made like an author account that wasn't my private, like the pictures of my kids or whatever. Um, and now that I see so many people posting about beta readers and stuff, I'm like, that's so awesome. Like it's so nice to have people that aren't your coworkers. All my beta readers are like co-workers and family or extended family or just like people to just read it at first.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Right. Like, God, no, I'm not gonna. Yeah, I'm not going to have like I'll have like my book girly friends read it. I'm not gonna give it to anyone that like doesn't know what a good romanticy is.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

Anyway, that's what today's episode is gonna be about, I think.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Yes. Oh, did you get your indie, your, your editor stuff back?

SPEAKER_00 8:09

No, I have well, she starts basically tomorrow. It's supposed to be the day that she starts on it officially. Um, but we just wanted to come on here, like just me and Jenna today and not have any guests and just chat about what we think and what we're hoping for the future of our of our books. We're off for a few weeks and we haven't chatted in far too long. I think it's just too, I think that that so many people who are out there listening, you are in really kind of the exact same spots that we are. It's it's like you're either in the middle of finishing your manuscript, you're you're really close to being done, and you're thinking about what are my goals in this, and where do I see this book going, or what do I want for this book? Why am I even here? Um and I don't know. I didn't really want to interview somebody who was like an expert on it or had been published or like knew this world because I feel like the conversation in your head is probably the conversation we we have all the time about it.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

And and let's just reestablish me and Kate are not experts. This podcast is not for you to really learn much. Like it's really just for entertainment purposes.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

It's just so you don't feel like these conversations are that like there's that you're not alone in wondering why you don't even know what an ARC reader is. Because why does everyone else know what exactly what an ARC reader is? I didn't know about it until we went to that indie publishing workshop. Um I mean, I was just like, there's beta readers, and then you query. I don't know what are the steps. Um, but I'm at the point where I'm questioning, like, so okay, I have finished it. I've queried it. I queried it from August and September. I sent like 50 queries, which I feel like was my that's where I hit a wall.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

I I think anything beyond that is like yeah, you're really like chugging the sauce on it. Like you're like really hardcore.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Yeah. And I did it like everyone told me to, like in batches, I would do like 10 at a time, get some feet, like see if it was working or not working. The first few didn't really work. So I went back and like did a query letter workshop, and then I started getting traction on the new query letter. But I think after 50, and then once I got some full requests, I was like, all right, I think I can't do this anymore. Um, I was just waiting for the full requests to come back, like the feedback from that, and then and then I just I was like so exhausted that I I don't know, I just sat and waited around for for months for these full requests. So I ended up, I think I I put it in a post recently, but my stats were like 50 or 40 or the 50 sent out, and then seven full requests, which it's just such a crazy mind game process because you're like, oh my God, somebody like wants to read this, like, and they do, and then they're like, I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

It it's really just I look at it as like a job interview when people like ask for fulls. It's like the the query letter is do you know what you're talking about? Do you have a pulse? Like kind of like what like a phone interview is to the to the like getting a job by comparison. And then if they ask for a full, that's like an in-person interview. And then after they get the full, then it's um, well, do I actually really need this position filled?

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Like that's how it feels. Yes, that's how it feels too.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

It's like it has nothing to do with you, it just has everything to do with do I want this? Like it, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

I it does. And then you get so much of the same thing back that's basically like I just don't see it. Um, I I don't have a vision for it in the marketplace, which when we talk to an agent at some point, that will be my first question. Like, decode these What does it mean? What's this? I know, and I think there's a lot that that they're just saying that's like, well, I just don't want or need this, and I'm gonna pass on it, but I don't want to go back and forth with you. So this is the best way for me to like articulate it. That's gonna just kind of end this conversation. Not that I would ever go back and forth with the nature, but it's just like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

It's a strange, it's a strange process. I totally, I totally feel that too. So, okay, let's let's kind of regroup on your story, like your like your storyline of your book. Um, so you did all of that. And then what were your feelings after? Because I feel like going to Albuquerque for the the WFWA retreat, something like shifted in your mind about your goal for your book.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Yeah, totally. I mean, you have to think to, I think for the longest time, it it wasn't like, oh, well, I want this book published by Simon and Schuster. That wasn't really the goal. This just seemed like the process that you do.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

It felt like it this is this is what I am supposed to do.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

It feels like what you're supposed to do. Right. It was like, it's like graduating high school, and you're like, okay, now I go to college, and I'm not even gonna question that decision. Millennials. Like, I'm just gonna do this because everybody is what you do, which is what you do. College. Cheers. Yeah, exactly. Cheers, cheers going to college for my performing arts degree.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Um at least mine was like a dark trade. Yours was like a pipe dream, that's what it was.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

So anyway, so I queried and I did I did the thing, and then I I was in Albuquerque just like waiting for those full request things to come back and you know, whatever, which I still haven't gotten the uh one final one, um which will come in the day that I make the decision to not get an agent. Yeah, but we won't make it. It just feels like the thing. And we did do a really good workshop, which we will have Catherine Matthews on this show for sure. Um, who's just like a incredible, my gosh, like a baller indie author, um, self-published, just amazing, wrote an insane book, probably could have sold it anywhere, and decided to bet on herself and she owns it now, you know. Um I never really considered that until that workshop.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

And I didn't even know what it was, like what the route was.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Mm-mm. She made it, she broke it down to make it seem so easy. Like, okay, all you you just need to like hire an editor, get your cover, but like, and just hire people to do these things, and it'll it you'll be fine. She was like, she just kept saying, like, if I can do it, you can do it. This is easy. Here's my Excel sheet of everything. That was the first time I ever questioned my path as a writer. And it it was the most freeing experience ever. So I don't know. I feel like so. I'm kind of in the process of now I've hired a developmental editor, which is something I never thought I would even do. Um, but I did it. And here's my experience so far. For all of you questioning whether you should hire a developmental editor. I haven't gotten anything back yet. She's starting tomorrow. So like I will update you on the full experience. Yes. Um, because I'm so curious. But and I texted you right after this because I was like, I didn't know this was going to be a thing. No, I go on I used Readsy because I I just wanted to find somebody like through a platform that I trusted. And so I like, you know, on Readsy, you put in basically a almost like a query letter. Like you just kind of put in a bit about your book, about yourself, and um, probably the first like 10 pages. And then you research a ton of their editors and their services, and you pick like five to send it to. So I pick five to for me to pay them a lot of money to developmentally edit my book. And then they they're supposed to send you basically their quote for your project back to you. And then they send you a lot of information. Actually, they'll like, they'll look at your pages, they'll give like a sample edit. It's pretty cool. Um, you do get a lot of in-depth info from them, plus their quote, and then you can send them messages back and forth. Really cool. But like, so I picked five and like one of them replied immediately, and she was just like, This looks awesome. I'd be super interested, like totally fine, normal, cool. The next one was just like basically like, this is a disaster. You can't name. So my book um is a travel book. It talks about Anthony Bourdain a little bit, just like as a joke. Like his name comes up as a joke. Some people famous, like they come up as references. You can't do that. You can't name famous people in your book. Also, I have a prologue. We can do an episode on that later. But she was like, the prologue can't chronologically come before the first chapter in the book. So my prologue is like a hint into like part two, like is in a hint and into like a future of my book. So I split like a scene that's in the middle of my book, and I put half of it as a prologue, and then you come back to it in the middle. It was like, you can't do that. It was like, watch me. So and then she was like, here's a quote for like $2,500. Like it was like obscene, way more than the other one. And then there was another one that she kind of did a sample edit on my pages, and the sample edits were just like, um, oop, don't like that. They were just like not phrased in a very like kind way. And then she was just like, I can see like I can see where you're going with this, but here's a few things I'm not getting. And I'm like, because you haven't read the whole book. She was like, I'm just questioning this. I'm like, good, I'm glad you are, because that would make you want to read more. This is the point. It was just like the worst. And then the other, the other three of them were, or the other two were amazing. And and they're like editors at like Simon and Schuster, the one that I went with, like worked at Bloomsbury forever and um actually worked on Eat Pray Love, which is like what my book's based on. Um, so I went with her. She just seems like a baller, and she lives in the UK and it was like super cool. And she literally was like, this this feels so fun to me, and all I want to do is read more. And I'm so glad this came into my inbox. And I was like, here, take my money. Just take my money.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

I will pay for rent.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Yes, just take it. That's how it should be, especially if you're at this stage where I was like, hey, look, I've been working on this for a decade. Like it's been through beta readers, it's already gotten full requests. Like, I just need a professional person to look at it and say, here's what's working and here's what's not working, here's what's gonna make it better before I do anything.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

So we'll update on that later. But it was a bigger process than I thought it was gonna be, or like it was more like internally exposing than I thought.

SPEAKER_01 20:32

You're like, I did not think I was going to get emotionally flayed today. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

I just thought people were gonna be like, here's my quote, like a contractor. I don't know, but it was not. So prepare yourself for that part of it. But I never I also never thought of like having a good or bad experience with an editor. And then it made me realize like the relationship between an editor and and writer and how important that is. Um, because I know some people have had some experiences.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Experiences, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

So you've always talked about how like in your genre, self-publishing is kind of a the thing to do. So have you questioned it before? Like, were you going into this writing this book? Were you like, I'll likely self-publish this or that I'll likely query?

SPEAKER_01 21:19

First, I was just like happy to learn about the industry, like the traditional industry. Like I researched the crap out of it because that's what I do. Like before I do anything, I research things way more thoroughly than the average human. Um, just to, it's mainly like a comfort thing of like, I don't want to feel inadequate. So I researched it a lot. Um I mainly just like the traditional side of it. I said, let's give it a whirl and start like worked on it a lot, eventually got it into like a pretty happy place, I thought. Then I realized that wait, a lot of the books that I love, like in the romanticy genre, they were all self-published first. Almost all of them were self-published first. And it wasn't until like either they were in the contemporary romance space and were self-publishing and then got a lot of like momentum and then went into romanticy. But even if they went straight into romanticy, it was a lot of self-publishing. And I was doing my research, looking more of like the people that did indie publish. And I'm like, I could just do this myself. Like I really could do it myself. But I didn't know the financial investment side of it, nor the pros of full creative control. Like that wasn't for being a creative individual in a creative space for my day job and my education, no clue, or rather, it didn't even cross my mind that that was one of the biggest things when we were like Catherine Matthews was talking about of what's the biggest benefit of being an indie author is that you have full creative control. You can talk about yeah, and ownership. Like you own it, you make all the dollars from it, but you also you can decide what goes in it. You can decide if like the topic matter, if it makes people uncomfortable, not just because of like because mine of like, you know, the spice level or anything like that. But you know, like you can talk about topics that don't necessarily sell like hot cakes. A really good example of that would be Rebecca Yarros. When she wrote Fourth Wing, she wrote it to be a reflection of what it's like um when a society really leans heavily on censorship. What does it do to rewriting history? What does it do in terms of transparency to the general public? And yeah, it is a kick-ass book, but if you look at like I don't screw it, like yes, I do mean this to like to get like political, of if you look at the books that are selling, they're not aligning with what's happening in the world. Like they're having these moments of like dystopia to them almost of that's such a good way to put it. Yeah. Like it it's it's so much more attractive to me as a writer to know that someone can't come to me and say, you're not allowed to put that in your book because it won't sell. So I want like my stories to be out there. Of course, I want them like to be their best. And Catherine Matthews like showed us that you can have an absolutely incredibly written, well edited, like that's always people's like biggest qualm with like indie authors, is that they're like, oh, they're not edited well. Like she's like, just pay someone to do it. And you can have that, you can have like an award-winning book and not have it be a traditionally published book. And here I am with like traditionally published and indie authors behind me. And it's like you can do either. So eventually, cool. If someone wants, like some large publisher wants to buy my book, great. Love that for me. But for now, I think I just want to go indie and I want to do it and I want to have control and I want to do it at my own pace.

unknown 25:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Because right now, like like we were just talking about, like I'm we're crazy people and we have a lot of things on our plates. And I don't want to feel like I'm disappointing my kids if I have to lock myself away for 12 months to finish a book that's on a deadline or anything. It's like it's when I want to do it.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

So that's such a good way to put it. Um, yeah, the control aspect of it for me too was just the ownership of the the dollars. Like that, I don't know. Like the creative control, I totally, I totally get. Um and I think too, when you hear so much, like if you're somebody who who's heard this a lot, like me, like I I I like it. It's strong. I just don't know where to put it in a bookstore or I don't know how to market it. I go, well, I do. So right. Like you I'm the best person to market it and you aren't. And like that's fine. But I just need to realize that maybe me selling my own product is is better at the moment. I think too, like, I think about publishing and I think about, and if this is your goal, like if you just want it, you want to see it at Barnes and Noble with the HarperCollins symbol on it, and that is why you're here, love it. Go for it. Shoot for the stars. Like, duh. I would love that too. Yeah. I think with this book, and and I'm I think that every book, this is what I'm also telling myself in my head that every book can have a different journey. Like maybe this book is the book that I'm the champion for because it's my story. Like I'm the best person for this. I've also been writing it for so long that I'm just so desperate to have it in my hand. And I will upfront some cost for that for me to be able to sell a product because right now I'm just posting about I'm just like posting about my day or the podcast or whatever. But eventually I just want to have this product that when people are like, oh, you're a writer, I'm like, yep, here we are. And there's nothing that's stopping me from doing that, except for people stopping me from doing that.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

That is so true. Like the only people that are saying no, they're not the ones that actually should be gatekeeping everything about your book.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

Exactly. And for some people, like they they wrote the perfect thing at the perfect time, and the the timing is just lines up for them really well.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Um they're on the cusp of a trend, on the cusp of a genre, and it fits the marketplace perfectly, and it may even like push the marketplace a little bit too. But I I think I'm in the same boat with you in that I don't think this book is that. I think this book is like a reaction to reading all the romanticies and wanting something that just had more depth and had more character development in like a female main character that was older, a female main character that wasn't like some kick-ass, like 17-year-old, like tiny kid that could, I don't know, take down like a full grown man. Like, no, that's not that's not who is reading the books right now.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

That's like so true, and that's why you want to get it out now. Yes, yeah, and not in three years.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

And which reasonably take the time, yes, it can take average two to three years to get your book traditionally published in the marketplace on the bookshelves. And that's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Like there's people who are like looking at fall of 27 right now for their which I love that, especially if you already have a book out there. Cause I think uh about the book's journeys, like I feel like if I'm if I have one that I can already hold in my hand and tell people I wrote and sell it somewhere, then like I feel much better about waiting that time on the next thing that I'm writing. And those are the people, honestly, when we talk to authors and we interview them here or we meet them at these retreats, um, those are the people who who ultimately like make it. It's the people who who just keep writing that they sit down and they just keep writing the next thing and the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And going back to the overnight success stories, like it's not just like hey, we're both talking about our debut novels. Like, are we gonna look back 10 years from now and just be like, oh, so cute. So cute.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

God, yeah. It's like that honey, that honeymoon phase a bit where you're just like in love with all of it, but then you're also like kicked in the teeth and you're just like, I'll do it again.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

It's so funny, but I wanted to touch on the subject with you. I just think that like so many people that follow us and are listening are also like, what the hell am I gonna do? Like, what are these options I didn't even know I had? We're not the ones to teach you about them.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

We're just the ones to be like, I have feelings about them. Um, we have plenty of other resources and people that we know and like organizations that want to teach you and are very good at teaching you. That's just we're just when you get to this point where you have all of these feelings, and I like in our last episode, Lindsay was like, Jenna, I know you have lots of feelings. I'm like, you've been listening. Um so when you feel it here, you will feel very, very alone. And that's why we're here because we're like, you're not alone. These all all these feelings, thousands, millions of people have had them. Like, how many authors have there been?

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Everyone's journey has their own, but they are very similar.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

I feel like the more people I talk about carousel of fun, a role.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

So thanks for like having a drink with us because this is basically what our conversations are when we do get to stop and have a drink together and chat about where we're at with these things. So it's nice to have a gut check at the beginning of the year for both of us. Yeah. Um, and for for you guys listening out there, we know you're there because we love getting your messages again. Like we we are so excited every time somebody tells us they're listening um or comments their own experience on a post. So please keep doing that. Um yeah, we're just glad you're here, and we can't wait to bring you like so much more of this content um in the new year.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Share your 2026 goal, your writing goal for the year. We're really interested to hear about them, especially because you know, we're just here, we're here for the vibes and we just want to celebrate you. We want lots of positivity in our worlds. So thank you so much for joining us for another episode. And if you haven't gotten enough of us, make sure to join us on YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram. So, and subscribe. That's very important as we are learning. So we will see you next week, everyone. Bye.