Nightmares, Plot Twists & Writing Psychological Thrillers | ft. Calvin Naraghi

What happens when a nightmare turns into a full-blown thriller novel?

This week on Margs & Manuscripts, we’re joined by Calvin Naraghi, indie author of House Rules, to talk all things thriller writing, horror inspiration, and the very unhinged ways authors come up with ideas.

From waking up in a cold sweat with a fully formed plot to building stories around music and cinematic moments, Calvin walks us through his creative process—and why horror writers might actually be the nicest people you’ll ever meet.

We also get into:

•  The difference between horror vs. thriller vs. psychological thriller
•  Writing plot twists and unreliable narrators
•  Why dark stories can actually be… fun?? 
•  Turning ideas into books (without telling anyone you’re trying 👀) 
•  The reality of indie publishing + social media growth
•  And yes… the absolutely unhinged Google search histories required to write these books 

If you’ve ever wondered how thriller writers come up with their ideas, this one’s for you.

In This Episode

•  How a nightmare became a published thriller 
•  Horror vs. thriller: what’s the difference? 
•  Writing plot twists that actually work 
•  The appeal of unreliable narrators 
•  Indie author marketing + social media tips 
•  Building a story from music and cinematic scenes 
•  Why horror writers are (surprisingly) the happiest people 

About Calvin Naraghi

Calvin Naraghi is an indie thriller author known for his cinematic, twist-driven storytelling. His books blend psychological suspense, horror elements, and high-stakes mystery, with stories that keep readers guessing until the very end.

Links + Resources

•  Follow Calvin on Instagram: @calvinnaraghi_writer
•  Shop his books
•  Join his newsletter

Support the Podcast

If you’re loving Margs & Manuscripts:

•  Shop our merch
•  Follow us on Instagram: @margsandmanuscripts
•  Share the episode with your writing besties 🖤

Transcript

Jenna G Judith (00:00)
back to another episode of Margs and Manuscripts. We're doing something a little different this time. We have a little announcement section. So take a drink every time we say announcements. Just kidding. have a fun news for you all. If you didn't see on Instagram, our merch shop is officially open. We are so excited.

The link is in our Instagram channel. It's also will be in the show notes of today's episode. people have been asking like, how can we support you? Are you gonna do a Patreon? Are you gonna do memberships? Anything like that? I'm like, nope, nope. Just buy our merch, yo. That's what you need to do.

Cait (00:32)
Nope. ⁓

Jenna G Judith (00:38)
because I got a little excited and there will be weekly drops in our merch shop from now on because I need to like focus myself. and then we also have our new website coming in about two to three weeks. It's gonna be featuring all of our guests that we've had on the podcast. It will have a link over to our shop.

This next announcement is a very special one because Cait has officially said when her book is going to be coming out and it's coming out May 28th and we're all so excited!

Cait (01:10)
Yeah, it is. I've been so inspired by all of the authors that we've been able to talk to, all of these people starting their journeys themselves. And so I decided to officially indie publish and really excited to bring you all on this journey with me because I've been figuring it out as you've been figuring it out and trying to ask all the questions. And I've just been absorbing all the info. So you have me 28th. You can follow me on my author account for more.

vote on that as well. We will do an episode live together on stage.

Jenna G Judith (01:41)
with like lights and stuff.

Cait (01:43)
and people in

the audience around that time. So tune in for that. And then I'm also gonna announce too that our link in bio form is closed at the moment for submissions and we will have a new pathway to submissions on our website.

Jenna G Judith (01:59)
And please enjoy our lovely guest of this week's episode, Calvin. He teaches us all about horror and thrillers and Cait may have to go and social media because yeah. Yeah, he's great. Like I just knew best friends. Yay.

Cait (02:09)
Social media and social media to ⁓ you're gonna love him. He's adorable

I would have asked you for a bio, but like we started doing bios and they sounded so official that I was like, like we should just do a drum. ⁓

Jenna G Judith (02:29)
Ew.

Calvin N (02:30)
It's okay, my bio always ends up being

like, I'm Calvin. It starts to end like a early 2000s dating show. like, I'm Calvin. I like to just go to the coffee shops and I like to sit in the back of the movie theater.

Jenna G Judith (02:41)
Okay, there you go, that's your dating profile. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah, cheers to that, man.

Calvin N (02:41)
That's.

Cait (02:42)
That does it. That's good enough for me. think that counts as an intro. Well, welcome. Yeah, welcome

to Margs and Manuscripts Calvin. We are like, so excited to have you here for a couple reasons. We have not done a show about horror or thrillers yet. Also, you are our first dude. You're our first dude. So I guess my first question is, tell us what it's like to be a woman writing horror.

Jenna G Judith (02:57)
Nope.

Calvin N (03:00)
Woo!

Jenna G Judith (03:09)
HAHAHAHA

Calvin N (03:09)
You

Cait (03:10)
To be a woman,

to be a woman writing horror. Yeah. I know, I tried to nail it, I didn't.

Jenna G Judith (03:14)
Cait, god damn it.

Calvin N (03:16)
I actually have a funny story about

that if you want to hear it. I was working the Reese Witherspoon Hello Sunshine Summit and I was like, oh my god, it would be so cool if my book was in here. I read the books on the shelf, every single one was by a woman. I was like, maybe I shouldn't be here.

Jenna G Judith (03:20)
Okay, please tell. Yes.

Cait (03:20)
no. This

is what it's for.

Calvin N (03:39)
I'm just gonna escort myself out. Yeah, I'm just gonna...

Jenna G Judith (03:41)
I'm just gonna cheer him on.

Cait (03:44)
Speaking of your book,

Calvin N (03:45)
did

see I clocked it immediately in the corner. my god amazing Thank you, I signed both of those right? I did send this. Okay. Yeah

Cait (03:48)
Yes, congrats. ⁓ We will do a giveaway too.

Jenna G Judith (03:51)
Yes.

Cait (03:55)
You didn't sign them? No, we never get signed books because we just buy them. did you get you got yours? ⁓ that's awesome.

Calvin N (03:58)
my god, I wrote a-

Jenna G Judith (04:01)
Yeah, because I bought it from his website and I told him it's for us.

Cait (04:04)
I know. just wanted

to, I got it like last week and I wanted to have it in like less than a day. So I'm sorry, I did get it on Amazon this time.

Calvin N (04:11)
That's so funny, you're we don't do that and she's like, I did it. Mine's a sign,

I about you.

Jenna G Judith (04:15)
Like we're gonna have to go, yes we're gonna go back, we're gonna ask all of our guests to sign our books because yes please I'm starting a stack.

Cait (04:17)
to do that more.

That's how it was great.

Must be side.

Calvin N (04:25)
Hell yeah.

Cait (04:26)
We will link to your book on our website. We have like a little bookshop that all of our guests, we just put them up with their website link and all of that. So if you want Calvin to sign one of your books, visit the bookshop. ⁓ I know, I'm not cool, but congrats on House Rules.

Calvin N (04:38)
Yes.

Jenna G Judith (04:40)
if you want to feel cool like me.

Calvin N (04:45)
Thank you!

the first one. second... Yeah, this is the sequel. Just got a new cover.

Cait (04:48)
This is the first one.

Okay,

good, I'm glad I got it in the right order.

Calvin N (04:52)
Yes.

Jenna G Judith (04:53)
then you're working on your third, correct? Okay, yes.

Calvin N (04:56)
Yes. Third, fourth

and lot going on. Not at the same time.

Jenna G Judith (04:59)
Wow, at the same time!

Cait (05:02)
Is

it all kind of the same family?

Calvin N (05:06)
these two are, it's like a duology, just the one and two, and then if everybody starts reading them and gets the hype around it, I want to do like a prequel that's like kind of like how they have that Hunger Games, what's it called, Songbird one that's like the origin of Snow, this would be like the origin of the house.

Jenna G Judith (05:20)
Yeah, yeah. Yep.

Calvin N (05:23)
Yeah. So like 60 years in the past.

Jenna G Judith (05:24)
Mmm.

Cait (05:26)
I love talking to horror and thriller writers though because they're always like the sweetest, most awesome and upbeat people. I know why is that? Like, why do you think that is?

Jenna G Judith (05:34)
You write dark shit.

Calvin N (05:38)
I

picture this image in my head of the first of the year, this black dark energy is pulling out of me into the book and then I'm like, I'm good for the year and then next year I gotta do it

Jenna G Judith (05:50)
it's like how you purge yourself of your...

Calvin N (05:51)
Yeah, demons.

I'm like, I feel so much better now. I'm just like, I'm a happier person. Yeah, he's got to get it out.

Jenna G Judith (05:54)
Yes.

Cait (05:58)
That's probably the best way I've ever heard it put.

Jenna G Judith (06:01)
Yeah,

my god. Yeah, like we had Lauren Kahn on in a previous episode and she's writing a thriller, like a thriller horror, and she's like, I just love to murder people. I'm like, my god, you're the nicest person.

Calvin N (06:05)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Cait (06:15)
I know.

Calvin N (06:15)
It's just so fun. I don't know about the murdering part, like just like the plot twist you can make are just so fun

Jenna G Judith (06:23)
It's

like you make up your own rules, but also you... okay, I need to ask this. Do you know the ending when you start or do you discover it?

Calvin N (06:35)
⁓

It depends, first two, that one behind you, I did know the ending of that one. I didn't decide if it was going to be a sequel or not, so I left the end of it. was like, this could be like a grim ending, or it could be the start of something new. But the one I'm working on right now, That was actually to side note, tangent.

⁓ A lot of people didn't know that there was a second one because I hadn't put in the end because like when you originally make the book you don't know so you don't have it already in there. So it didn't say move on to book two and so they're like man well that's that's the end I guess. It's a rough life. And I was like you know there's a second one they're like ⁓ my god since when I'm like since October. And they're like read it and then they texted me again they're like my god it makes so much more sense.

Jenna G Judith (07:14)
you

yeah, like would you ever go back and edit, like make like a second edition of the first one that like has a, I don't know, like a preview of the second.

Cait (07:18)
I that being confusing.

Calvin N (07:19)
Yeah.

Oh, I just did! I

Jenna G Judith (07:28)
I love a show and tell.

Calvin N (07:30)
Okay, I gotta cover the top so it doesn't spoil the ending

Jenna G Judith (07:33)
Hahaha

Calvin N (07:35)
Okay, so I my god

Okay, there we go. So I added that at the bottom.

Cait (07:40)
that's a really cool idea.

Calvin N (07:41)
I

Jenna G Judith (07:39)
Very nice.

Calvin N (07:41)
usually put on a separate page but I literally I can't like extend the cover because like when you really have to base on the spine dimension of how like big a book is if you add a page it like messes it up so I was like we're gonna have to make this work and I'm not gonna cut my acknowledgements in half to save a page so we're just gonna make it fit and it did

Cait (08:00)
such an indie author struggle of things that you don't think of that you're gonna have to become an expert on and also figure out how to do. I love that you had that idea. That's super cool. ⁓

Calvin N (08:08)
Yeah.

It looked cute, I was like, this

is fit. And then to answer your other question, yeah, my third book, I don't know who the murderer is, I've kind of just like, made everybody. it's kind of like a simple favor mixed with Jennifer's body. So it's really like, things are happening, you don't know who's like doing it, might be unreliable narrator, we don't know. I don't know. It's a journey of discovery. Yeah, I'm like, I know like plot points. I know how it's.

Jenna G Judith (08:31)
It's a journey of discovery for you.

Calvin N (08:36)
Like I want to end, if the world moves me in a different way, we'll see choose.

Cait (08:41)
fascinated by an unreliable narrator, anybody played with that in the past or like written anything with an un, because.

Calvin N (08:44)
Right?

Yeah,

The Blind Patient is like the best one, I think. Have you read that one?

Jenna G Judith (08:53)
haven't read that one but then there's Fight Club which is just like the epitome of all of them.

Calvin N (08:55)
yeah, that's a good one.

Cait (08:56)
No.

Calvin N (08:58)
Yeah.

Jenna G Judith (09:00)
Yup.

Or, ⁓ American Psycho also.

Calvin N (09:02)
Yeah, that's a good and the shards, I just read that. That's the same author of American Psycho. But that one's really trippy because it's a fake autobiography. He's like, this is me in my youth as Brett Ellis. And I was like, you're like crazy. Your character's... I was like, this better be autobiography.

Jenna G Judith (09:08)
Mm-hmm.

you read a lot of like thrillers and like horror growing up or was it something that you're like, if I'm gonna write, like this fits me and exercising my demons on the regular.

Calvin N (09:31)
No, I really I mainly read coming-of-age stories like Perks of Being a Wallflower is my favorite book And then I like watched a lot of horror movies which kind of got me in like you kind of get like the blocking and the pacing of it But I really want to write coming-of-age and I wrote the outline for one I started like writing it and I really want to finish that one at some time at some point down the road

But I feel like as an indie author, kind of have to like pick a genre and kind of establish yourself a little bit in it and then you can kind of like dip into other things. So I'm trying to do like three psychological thrillers. So these two and then that third one. And then I'm thinking of doing a rom-com. That's what I have this idea for. And then maybe jump back into the thriller. And then go like, this is always the majority of thrillers. So it's like sticks to something,

Cait (10:21)
Well, Jenna, you were just telling me about how in that that's what it reminded me of is the Stephen King thing about how he wrote all these things that you would never think were written by Stephen King that are so off brand.

Calvin N (10:28)
Yeah, the

Jenna G Judith (10:29)
⁓

Calvin N (10:31)
life of chalk, so good.

Jenna G Judith (10:31)
Yes! my god, Life of Chuck. Fascinating. That was a short story. And I'm like, how did you make an entire two and half hour movie on a short story? Like crazy. But anyways, yeah, my husband is really, really big into Stephen King. Like he loves Stephen King he likes to read the book and then we'll watch the movie and then go back and

Cait (10:50)
Is horror and thriller the same? Are they very different? Cause I just saw your video on your Barnes and Noble book being sold out and you were talking about how they were like different sections of the store. I'm not in this world. So I'm very glad I'm asking questions about it.

Calvin N (11:05)
Yeah, I'm not fully sure.

I looked it up too, because I was a concerned. think my definition is a horror is you know who the villain is in a thriller, you Saw and you're like, this is the bad guy. We're trying to not die. There's always like something like you have Michael Myers. He's the bad guy. You have.

Jenna G Judith (11:24)
Right.

Calvin N (11:28)
Etc, etc, etc. And then Thriller, I feel like it's more like, who is doing this? Why are they doing this? What's the reason? So it's more like mystery, serious. But I think they can really go like both.

Jenna G Judith (11:39)
without

I've seen horror done with a lot of gore. Like, thrillers tend to not have as much bloodshed.

Calvin N (11:45)
Yeah.

Cait (11:49)
yeah, we don't teach you anything on this podcast. We just literally talk shit and drink. This is not for learning purposes. This is

Calvin N (11:50)
Yeah, let's get get Neil Campbell on the Call up Courtney Cox

Jenna G Judith (11:51)
Yeah, absolutely not.

Yep.

had to...

Cait (11:59)
But then you have thrillers and then

you have like the psychological thrillers which don't have to be I guess don't have to be terrifying what they did they just make you think a lot or they just fuck with your head. Yeah, okay.

Calvin N (12:08)
Yeah, like we were were liars is a good psychological thriller example.

I put mine as like horror and psychological thriller because Something's going on in their head that they're trying to figure out that's like kind of separate from the plot and that's also like feeding into the plot,

Cait (12:22)
you guys are magicians, that sounds so hard.

Calvin N (12:25)
No, it makes it so much easier because you're like, I'm getting really like this is getting really stale in the A-line. Let's jump back to the flashback and add some random exposition that makes everyone stressed.

works out great.

Cait (12:36)
I don't know how you all do that. And the people who do that like love, that's why they do it. They love putting those puzzle pieces together and like doing it and playing those games with a reader. like, it's exciting and I should definitely read more. I have a question for everybody. Who's the first one to get killed and who's the, are you the first one to get killed? Jenna, you're not.

Calvin N (12:41)
Mm.

Jenna G Judith (12:59)
No, I'm definitely not the first one to get killed. No.

I'd like the one that like when they die, you're like really disappointed. You're like, ⁓ shit. Like, why did you have to kill them off? Like they had the answers. And then of course, like Like I was rooting for you. Like at that moment, that's me in any story that there is murder and I am present. Yes.

Cait (13:05)
Like.

Calvin N (13:10)
It was rooting for them.

Cait (13:22)
you struck me as a survivor. I don't know.

Calvin N (13:24)
don't know, I feel like I'm always like, I think I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna have like all these like, like, ⁓ I prepared for this and then I'm gonna be like dodge the, dodge the knife, go left and then just gonna stab me in the chest. And I'm like, that's not how I rehearsed this in my head.

Cait (13:35)
Yeah

Jenna G Judith (13:38)
But Cait, I think, I don't know, I don't think you would die first.

Calvin N (13:42)
Enough of it.

Cait (13:42)
definitely. Definitely.

I die first. I am a quitter. Yeah.

Calvin N (13:46)
Fuck what?

Jenna G Judith (13:46)
I

Cait (13:47)
No, I'm 100%. I know this about myself. It's fine. I am a quitter. don't want to... If there's a zombie apocalypse, like why do you want to survive that? No thanks.

Jenna G Judith (13:47)
No.

Cait (13:56)
No, when things get scary, I'm out. I'm done. It's

Jenna G Judith (13:59)
Cait has experienced,

Cait you've experienced firsthand that I do not quit.

Cait (14:05)
Yes, to the point of toxicity. So I thought I definitely think you will last. You will last because yeah, you don't you for sure don't quit. I just loved that question. It says a lot.

Jenna G Judith (14:07)
Yes. Whoopsie.

Calvin N (14:08)
I wouldn't.

Yo ass. At a spite.

If I'm gonna get killed off, I just really hope I'm not like the cold open of like the movie. Where they're like, they're like, this is introducing the killer and you're like, don't even have a name. You're just Joe Smoe who got stabbed in the attic. Yeah, body number one.

Jenna G Judith (14:16)
Cheers.

Cait (14:21)
Hahaha

No.

Jenna G Judith (14:28)
Like, body number one.

Cait (14:30)
your book is like pretty scary. I have a low bar. This is but I was scared by I also live in an old creepy house and so that that's probably why I stay away from books like this. um, do you this is like a genuinely honest question. When you are writing do you freak yourself out?

Calvin N (14:48)
Well, I got this whole book from a nightmare that I had, and I woke up in a cold sweat, I was like, notes app, immediately, write this down. ⁓ have the trials fully mapped out, because that's a lot of, you know, dreams can't handle that amount of logic.

Jenna G Judith (14:58)
that's like clandestine.

Cait (15:00)
Yeah

Calvin N (15:07)
And then, yeah, that was definitely woke up in a cold sweat. Living it. I lived it. I lived through the whole thing. Yeah.

Cait (15:12)
So you dreamt this crazy, crazy plot?

Jenna G Judith (15:19)
You

are a young Stephen King.

Calvin N (15:22)
I like, don't want to go through that again, Hopefully the rest can just come up.

Cait (15:22)
You

Jenna G Judith (15:27)
that's how he wrote The Shining. Like he was at the Stanley Hotel, had a really bad dream, and then he wrote the book.

Calvin N (15:30)
Mm-hmm.

Cait (15:33)
I mean, how else do you come up with this shit? I don't know you guys. that's super cool.

Calvin N (15:38)
have

like, I keep like a list in my phone of like whenever I get an idea for something,

Cait (15:41)
Like, have you ever been like, I'm just that's too fucked up. I can't write that. Well, how did that just come out of me?

Calvin N (15:46)
That was

the only dream I've written down ever The rest have just been like I usually get ideas from like a hear a song and I was like this would be such a good Song for someone to die to he's so good. I was like this Yeah, I'd be like I think I was listening to this like Dolly Parton song I was like this would be so funny if this was playing and someone's just like like blowing up people's heads with their hands or

Cait (15:51)
Okay.

That's what I'm looking for. That's I wanna know.

Calvin N (16:13)
I was like, I don't know how that came to me, but it just did.

Cait (16:16)
deep dive I wanted. So

it's like I'm stuck in the middle with you like when you now every time I hear stuck in the middle with you I just see a guy like carving out the guy's ear from ⁓ was it Reservoir Dogs or was it which movie was you guys don't even know every time I hear stuck in the middle with you I think of this like horrible gory scene that they played to get that really happy song. like that like

Calvin N (16:30)
Yeah, I think so.

yeah, I have

Jenna G Judith (16:41)
Yeah, I know the song.

Calvin N (16:42)
the movie.

Jenna G Judith (16:42)
I don't know the...

Cait (16:42)
Yes! You guys don't

know that scene? I thought everybody did. I don't know. It's super good.

Calvin N (16:46)
I just know that when

I hear Total Eclipse of the Heart and there's like Strangers 2 and he's like stabbing him in the pool and then they use that song again in Ready or Not 2 like last week when the premiere came out and I was like, I love this movie and this song in horror movies, it's so good. The scene's always gonna be so intense.

Cait (17:06)
funny. So do you use music a lot when you write?

Calvin N (17:09)
originally got into writing, or writing books because I was writing short films and stuff and I was like, this is a budget I can't afford. So we're gonna make this a book and hopefully someone will be like, that's the best thing I've ever read, I wanna make that into a movie on my dime. But I can, I'm always just like, ugh, if I was making the movie, I'd use this song in the scene, it'd be perfect, this song in the scene. That's usually how I get the whole book, or whole.

idea for the whole thing. I'm like, find one scene with one song, and then I just have to make the entire book around it yeah.

Jenna G Judith (17:37)
Everyone's

creative process is so unique. So that's one I haven't heard before. I'm like, freshness.

Calvin N (17:40)
Yeah.

Yeah, fresh.

so the one book I haven't written it I wrote like four chapters of it, but the coming of age one is about this town that's like gets kind of like forgotten about it's like those old nuke towns or dooms towns that they use for like government testing. It's like if they didn't blow one up and people moved into it and then cut to present day, they need to blow it up again, because they need to test as they kick everyone out. But I had sweet disposition playing and I was like,

picturing the entire town on the cliffside watching their town like blow up and they're like Celebrating and that song is just queuing the end of the movie just like panning out with like that's super wholesome just like This is the end of an era and then I was like I have to the whole script like whole thing about this now

Cait (18:25)
I love when writers think like cinematic because I feel like that comes out so much in their book. And now that you say that, like I can definitely see your descriptions and stuff in this and House Rules are just the one we read. it's very cinematic. You can picture everything really well, which must be like a secret. The secret key in horror is like to be able to like truly see it. And so to say that you have like the film.

That was kind of your first thing, but like totally adds up.

Calvin N (18:51)
Mm-hmm.

I really took a lot of inspiration from The Great Gatsby. I was like, what if The Great Gatsby, but like, he was like, during the parties, not to like lure the girl, but to like kill a guest. perhaps if he's like had a different kink, I don't know. He had a different thing running his mind.

Cait (19:03)
Right.

Jenna G Judith (19:10)
American Psycho and Great Gatsby.

Calvin N (19:12)
Yeah,

pretty much. Saw maybe Saw and Grey Gatsby but like PG-13. Yeah, it's just so funny because I can't even really handle those Saw movies. But I was like, this is like Sawlite. Well, yeah, like just the free trial. Sawlite.

Jenna G Judith (19:17)
Okay, yep. Yep.

Cait (19:25)
So light there it is. You just put it at the bottom of the book

So light yeah that for people like me that would help

Calvin N (19:34)
did this like talk at a high school I had all these kids come in and I was telling them, I was like, the best part of writing a book, like the absolute best part is you don't have to tell anyone you're trying. Like you can just finish the whole thing.

Cait (19:45)
Yes.

Calvin N (19:46)
Or you could like try it and it doesn't work out, you just throw it away. No one even has to know you tried it until it's acting, acting you have to present yourself as like a pitch in the book. You're like, this is my it's done. Here you go. Exhibit A, which is I think is a lot nicer for my perfectionist brain.

Cait (20:02)
Yeah.

I totally can identify with that. And really actors are like the people that can understand what you just said because you are just selling yourself, like literally your face and your brand and what you bring to the table all the time.

Whereas like writing, you can just be like, this is my passion and I do it by myself and nobody has to know until the day that you're like, yeah, I wrote a whole book and you can put it out in the world. I mean, it's, I totally get that. It's hard.

Calvin N (20:31)
Yeah, exactly. I will say it's been, such a,

it feels like such a flex to say, like I'm being in LA, I'm like, yeah, I'm an author. They're like, you write screenplays. I was like, no, I write books. They're like, they're like, people do that in LA. And I was like, I know, I was like, finally, I'm like, not competing with, not, I found a smaller pool of competition in this city of like so much creative people, which is nice in a way. doesn't feel as overwhelming now.

Cait (20:45)
I know.

I want to talk a little bit about your social media stuff because, mean, that's how we found you. And I think that our listeners are indie authors, they're writers, or they're pre-published, whatever it is. Probably follow you or have at least seen your videos on their algorithm because you do a great job. I also think your social media, like,

Calvin N (21:01)
Yeah.

Glad it's worked.

Cait (21:18)
the fact that you have the acting and all that stuff, it kind of brings this like different angle than like a regular writing social media vibe. So it's really, it's really cool. I really like your page a lot. It's really fun to follow. So if you don't follow Calvin, follow him now. But what, as people, like I said, a lot of people are indie authors and writers, even starting out in their career, what are some...

pieces of advice that you could give about kind of starting the social media journey or being on that journey.

Calvin N (21:48)
like the first six months, I was at like 300 followers maybe for like, even though I was posting every day. I don't know if it ever actually like, if I ever actually figured it out. I think it's just, if you keep posting every day, and if one thing's not working, you like,

kind of like shift a little bit and try new things because it's basically like you're entering a lottery every single day when you make a post and you're just waiting for that one to go viral and then when that goes viral then all your other videos get more views like now I'm I have like 10,000 followers on Instagram so I get like 4,000 views per reel or something usually roughly and if one of those just magically takes off then you get more followers and it's like your new like it's like you have like a new bracket of like

Cait (22:24)
Mm-hmm.

Calvin N (22:31)
viewers and then for each video and then it kind of like can grow a little bit again so it's kind of just like you're building blocks and if you post every day then you keep kind of cementing a new foundation floor like bottom base level so that's where I try and look at it as like you're getting a little bit more and you're just waiting for you're like setting up the stage for like when the one goes gets lucky and it goes viral that people have see you have other stuff to like look at but it is definitely stressful and annoying

Because when you're like, I'm doing everything right, why am I not getting any of these to go viral? Why isn't no one following me? But you also have to kind of interact with other people and not just be like in your own world, which is hard in its own way, because you're like, I don't want to be on social media all day. And that's my biggest pitfall. It's like, I should be writing right now. I just spent five hours making this TikTok and I like thousand

Cait (23:19)
it's so nice to hear you say that because I think a lot of people who like obviously like social media is not their medium. Like this isn't what we're doing. This is like writing is the first thing. Publishing is the second thing. Then there's the marketing. And so to hear you say that there's like not, you are just entering a lottery and that's how it feels a lot of the time, at least for me and Jenna. It's like you post something and you're like,

Calvin N (23:30)
Mm-hmm.

Cait (23:44)
Yeah, you just see, but there's not like a secret sauce. Like there's just not this like you're just putting it out there into the world. Yeah, but I think everybody kind of has this like, what am I doing wrong? Or like, is there something else I should be doing? Or it is

Calvin N (23:47)
Yeah. Exactly.

Jenna G Judith (23:48)
No.

Calvin N (23:55)
Mm-hmm.

I think I have three pieces of advice for that. Maybe two, we'll see. The first one is definitely the more obvious one is the reels get the new people, the carousels, which are the posts with multiple slides, are the ones that keep the people. those are the ones that you kind of build your foundation of core fans with.

Cait (24:03)
No,

Jenna G Judith (24:04)
you're going to learn something today, folks.

Cait (24:06)
no.

Calvin N (24:23)
and the reels are like the net and you're like pulling them in. You're like, this is my foundation over here. So I try and do like reels every day, but also try and add a carousel like every three days. That kind of makes people feel like they're more a part of, like they get to see you more than just like a random audio of you like typing. And then I found, thank you. Try. In the second.

Jenna G Judith (24:39)
Totally.

Cait (24:39)
Yeah.

Yeah, you do a great job of that. It's very personal. Yeah.

Calvin N (24:46)
The second one is that you have to like remember that everyone has like a 0.5 second attention span so you cannot say hello that you lost them. If you're like, you're like, hello, I'm done. They're gone. Like if you're like, got to like open that TikTok or you got to there's no no time, no time for pausing. You got to immediately like start that thing with like, you're like, I fell out of a car today. And they're like, oh, I'm in, I'm hooked. I'm here.

Cait (25:01)
Yeah.

Yeah

Calvin N (25:15)
And you can't be like, and the third thing is you cannot be talking about things that, unless you have the foundation, like the people already following you cannot be talking about like some super niche thing that happened to you. That sounds like referring back to another post you did because a lot of people haven't seen that one. So they're like, what are you talking about? Like what's going on here? They're like, I don't know where you were last year at this random thingy. So I try and like.

bring people up to speed as fast as possible with whatever the main thing is. And then the carousels are the ones that you can go dive back into like the year ago, like flashbacks and stuff. And the people that have been following will be happy to like see that stuff. So I kind of feel like it's like a nice blend of you're like, boosting your relationship with your old followers and getting new ones. And they're like, this is like a nice little group you gotta go in here. I'd like to just open the door and join in. So that's all the advice I had.

Jenna G Judith (26:07)
That's like the...

that's like the formula. I really hope Instagram does not listen to it and change that formula, honest. But... yeah, like, ⁓ damn it. Yeah, we've been locked out of shit before, so...

Cait (26:08)
was great.

Calvin N (26:08)
you

Yeah, they're like, you caught up, you're done. Your account's canceled.

Cait (26:15)
Hahaha

Calvin N (26:22)
like, please don't.

Cait (26:25)
Yeah, we have.

Speaking of, I've gotten into Instagram jail from the stuff that I've had to put in. so it sparked this whole episode about search histories for writers and stuff. And I have not talked to a horror writer about this yet, but I bet you have some crazy search histories.

Jenna G Judith (26:44)
please share.

Calvin N (26:46)
are like, what natural leaves can you use as like inflammation or like as like a clotting blood? What things could you find in a forest that could like stop a bullet hole? I don't know. Or I'm like, how do you cauterize a wound? How do you like kill someone with? I'm like, it's another thing to write like for my book. Comic, comic, comic.

Cait (26:52)
Hahaha

Yeah

Calvin N (27:09)
for as an author for my book but now it kind of does like the auto search thing at the top or whatever it is so like I feel like they kind of understand what I'm talking about they don't like I mean because sometimes they're like they're like sending you like this suicide hotline or something I was like no it's not for me it's for my character like this is layered layered story here

Cait (27:26)
Yep.

Exactly. Yeah, I knew that. Yeah, that makes me feel better. I got, yeah.

Calvin N (27:32)
Ha ha!

Jenna G Judith (27:33)
Yep. Cait needed

apparently she needed some help with with some drugs.

Cait (27:37)
I got like a drug and alcohol addiction. Yeah, some

of that content after searching for where to buy drugs in Barcelona. So where to buy, where to buy, I searched where to buy cocaine in Barcelona.

Calvin N (27:44)
⁓ Wait, what? Where did I what?

I'm sure that would be on Reddit maybe.

Jenna G Judith (27:52)
That's it! That's a-

Cait (27:53)
Yeah, started so

yeah, I started to get like addiction counseling services stuff for Don't even I was like I'm writing a rom-com. This isn't even like you guys I can't even imagine this shit you guys look up

Calvin N (28:07)
Yeah.

Jenna G Judith (28:08)
definitely looked up how long it takes for a body to go into rigor mortis when it's stuck in a snowstorm.

Calvin N (28:16)
Oh my gosh. You're like, you need to hide a body, to get rid of a body. How deep do you need to bury a body in the woods for it to be untraceable by dogs?

Jenna G Judith (28:23)
Yeah.

Cait (28:23)
Thanks.

Hahaha!

Jenna G Judith (28:27)
Yes, absolutely. Like those are very important things we need to know.

Calvin N (28:31)
Yeah.

Cait (28:32)
Yeah

Calvin N (28:33)
They're like, check out a book at the library. Go.

Jenna G Judith (28:35)
No, that's when you know like, generative AI is going to just like, cut humanity off. It's gonna be like, just go to the library.

Cait (28:46)
No, I can't help you with that.

Calvin N (28:47)
Like, I'm not allowed to talk about that. Like, my boss said I can't talk about that. Cut that out.

Jenna G Judith (28:48)
You

Yep.

Cait (28:52)
Yeah

I just want to ask if there's anything that like you want to add

Jenna G Judith (28:54)
That's it, yeah.

is your like your little moment to tell to sell yourself as both the face the name the book. And just Yeah, what do want the people to know today?

Calvin N (29:07)
So big exciting news. My books are going to be in Barnes and Noble very soon in the next coming weeks. My audiobook is coming out this week. So I'm going to be doing a little giveaways in my newsletter and in my street team that I'm going to be setting up later today.

It's very exciting. I hope you are all ready for all these horror things because Halloween might be over, but horror is year round.

Cait (29:28)
⁓ shit!

Calvin N (29:28)
Yeah

Jenna G Judith (29:29)
my gosh, yes! Like, come on.

Cait (29:30)
What a line.

Calvin N (29:32)
I put that

on my little thing on my book signings, like little stand thing.

Cait (29:38)
That's super cool. Super I love a good announcement. I love when we get an announcement. That's so fun. Yeah, it's the best.

Jenna G Judith (29:44)
We need a hot scoop.

Well, thank you so much for joining us. I'm so happy we got you on, because I messaged Cait, I'm like, I want Calvin on the podcast.

Cait (29:49)
Yes!

Calvin N (29:49)
Of course.

Cait (29:57)
Yeah,

she said.

Calvin N (29:59)
Honored to be the first guy on here.

Jenna G Judith (30:00)
Yep.