Why No One Warns You About Book Launch Anxiety | ft. Meg Rosenthal

What happens when you finally finish your book… and then immediately spiral?

In this episode, we sit down with Meg Rosenthal to talk about the very real anxiety that comes with putting your work into the world. From 2am panic spirals to the vulnerability of “bleeding on the page,” we unpack the emotional weight of publishing, the fear of critique, and the unexpected mental load that no one warns you about.

We also dive into imposter syndrome, the tension between commercial vs. authentic writing, and what it actually means to create art in an industry that expects you to monetize it. Meg brings a unique perspective having worked across multiple sides of publishing—as an author, editor, and hybrid-published writer—offering both practical insight and honest reassurance for anyone navigating the writing journey.

In this episode:

•  The reality of book launch anxiety (and why no one talks about it) 
•  The vulnerability of “bleeding on the page” as a writer 
•  Fear of critique, reviews, and putting your work out publicly 
•  Imposter syndrome and feeling like you don’t “belong” 
•  What actually defines “good writing” (and who gets to decide) 
•  Traditional vs. indie vs. hybrid publishing paths 
•  Writing for yourself vs. writing for the market 
•  Commercial expectations vs. authentic storytelling 
•  The emotional impact of sharing your work with people you know 
•  Pricing your work and the challenge of valuing creative output 
•  The balance between art, passion, and making money 
•  Why community matters (and how it changes everything)

Books:

• Beautiful and Deadly by Nicole Yvette
• Realms of Ruin by Nika McKinney
• We Would Never Tell by Anne-Sophie Jouhanneau
  
  

About Our Guest: Meg Rosenthal

Meg Rosenthal is a contemporary romance author, editor, and host of The Architecture of Story podcast. She is the author of The Right Words and The Wingman, and brings a unique perspective to the publishing world through her work across hybrid publishing, editing, and author education.

Through her editorial work and podcast, Meg helps writers better understand story structure while encouraging them to create with both intention and authenticity. She is also an active member of the writing community, supporting authors at every stage of their journey.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This to April releases, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 0:02

There are so many releases this month. So many releases. You all are incredible. We wanted to take a minute and just give you guys a shout out to some of the books that we're really excited about. They'll be in the show notes, of course. Uh, but we really wanted to send out an extra congratulations to three authors that are releasing their books this month. The first one is Nicole Yavett. Nicole! I know! So Beautiful and Deadly comes out April 13th. We're so excited for you. Um if you did not see her on I forget what episode was it. Social media. Oh yeah, the social media episode. Yeah, Nicole was on our social media episode. She's a delight. So please go buy her book. We'll have a link in the show notes. Next we have Nika McKinney. Um her book comes out, Realms of Ruin. Uh I think it's coming out April 7th, which is the day that this this is getting released too. So it's like double whammy. Um, but I'm personally very excited because it's a romantic and we all know that's just my favorite thing in the world. Um, we're also very excited for Anne Sophie Ohano. Apologize if I butchered your last name. Um, but her book comes out April 14th. It is We Would Never Tell. This book looks incredible. I will say you outdid yourself with that cover design. It is exceptional. Girl, congrats.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Cheers to all of you. Cheers. Cheers. Mm-hmm. But yeah, and everybody releasing this month.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

That's incredible. Yes, I swear. We could like build, I could build a whole nother like library of all the books that we know that are coming out this month.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Um and if you have a book coming out, always feel free to comment on our posts and or let us know in our messages on Instagram. And I legit have a spreadsheet going. And I'm very excited just to spread the word about all the lovely books that are coming out.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

So, what do you do when your book comes out in one month and you are experiencing all of this book launch anxiety that you never thought in a million years that you would ever experience because you felt so confident that you were like, I'm just going to release this out into the world because the world needs to read it. And now you're up at 2 a.m. crying and thinking that this was just a terrible idea and you should just pull the whole thing, and what are you doing? Um, well, I called Meg Rosenthal. And she seemed like the best person to talk to about this because Meg has released two books. One just last year, around this time, The Wingman. She has her own podcast. She is one of the coolest, most educated, and smartest women I have ever come across. She's a bestie of the pod. She's been listening since day one. We love her. You all love her. This is this is Meg Rosenthal. So, Meg, welcome to the podcast. We are so excited. This has been such a long time coming. Speak to the devil. Ladies, I literally was just doing your intro. Spooky. Welcome to the podcast, Meg Rosenthal. This has been a long time coming, and you popped up.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Look, I'm I'm on brand today. I'm wearing marks and manuscripts colors.

unknown 3:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

I did it on purpose. Do you want me to leave and come back? Did I ruin the intro? No. It was literally it was literally like simple.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

I can't even describe what just happened.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

It was bizarre.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

It was bizarre. Pure magic. It was it was magical.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Hi, how are you? How's your cat?

SPEAKER_00 4:10

My cat is good. I'm not gonna lie. Um, it's been a wild day. I live with my sister, and her boyfriend just showed up six minutes ago and dumped her. So there's a lot of feelings in the house right now, and we're gonna just broll with it.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Oh my god, she needs a mark.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

She does. She does. I I poured mine. I'm like, do you want me to make one for you before I go? Yeah, it's okay. We can if it's we'll come back to it. I'll check on her in an hour. Okay. She literally looked at me, she's like, I need time to process. And I'm like, cool, I needed to get on a call anyway. So we'll chat later.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Well, I was just saying before you came in, welcome. We are we are thrilled that you are here. Um, I also was saying how you were literally the first person I talked to in the morning after I had a like an actual mental breakdown in the middle of the night about releasing a book. And then I felt like, is this like I don't know if you like, but postpartum depression is what they talk about all the time. But the real thing that kicks your ass is like postpartum anxiety, but no one ever tells you that that's gonna happen after you have a kid, right? Like nobody's ever like you're gonna experience all of these crazy insane thoughts in your head and you're gonna feel insane, but um it's normal. Nobody tells you that. And this felt like one of those moments where I was like like a panic attack. Yeah, like I was like, nobody told me that this was like a real thing. So I'm guessing a lot of other people have probably experienced it too. But for sure. Yeah, like what you have two books that how what why do we torture ourselves like this?

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Essentially, yeah, not only is the process of like cutting open your soul and like bleeding it on a page absolutely beautiful and excruciating, but then you have to like share it with the world and you have to like open yourself up to almost like that that window inside you, because I mean whether it's it's fact or fiction, there's there's a part of you that that is on the page no matter what, I believe. Um the the the way that you see the world and the way that your life experiences influence what like what goes into you has to come out of you somehow. So I I I'm a full believer in there's a part of you in every word that you write. And that's hard. Like we as writers, I think are a sensitive bunch in the sense that we uh strive for this perfectionism and we always strive to like I think a lot of a lot of the my friends that I know, we're all very goal-oriented. That's why we keep writing books and putting words out there. Um, maybe we need that validation, but with that, that vulnerability of putting your work out there, you're opening yourself up to critique too. And that's scary. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Scary.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

There is this thing too where I think that like when you are, whether you're doing an MFA or you're a new writer kind of dipping your toes in for the first time, there is this sense in your head of just like, what is good writing? And am I doing it well? Am I doing it to the point where it's good? And you're like, it at some point you have to be like, there's no such thing. I guess like you're just like, this is this is just how I write, and this is why I am, especially when you are in depublishing, because you're like, is this up to the standards? But Meg, what's awesome about you is that you edit as well. And so you know, you worked with her, and so you are on all these different sides of the experience. And so is that kind of what you see like authors go through as well, even in your own experience, walking the journey with other authors too.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Yeah, and I think what you just said about what is good and it are you good, I think it's the bigger question of who gets to decide that. Like, and in some ways, it's I guess we as writers and readers have the power because readers at the end of the day will choose to purchase and consume stories that they think are good, but your audience is so wide and varied. And I was actually talking, so I'm both of my books are signed with a hybrid publisher. So they're a little bit of a cross between a traditional publishing journey and then a um indie publishing experience as well. And I was actually talking with her not too long ago about one of the joys and freedoms that you have as a hybrid or indie published author. You get to have a little bit more freedom about what you put out into the world versus in your very narrow traditional publishing market. It's so hard to break into because what they're looking for is so commercial and specific. So I think that question of deciding what is good when you are like I get to work with a lot of indie authors as an editor, you get to experiment a little bit more and maybe tap into a market that may not be considered, you know, commercial in the traditional sense. Um, but at the end of the day, like we talk all the time between writers too. Publishing a book is awesome, making a dollar is great, you know, we we're starving artists out here. But at the end of the day, you have to have that joy for what you write. And I think if you have that joy of what you enjoy reading and what you enjoy creating, that's gonna come through on the page too. So that quote unquote what's good and what's not. There are certain commercial beats and character arcs that you have to hit. Um, but at the end of the day, write what you want to write and then you know, pull in an editor and pull in a beta reader, pull in whoever you want to kind of help polish it. But that that first round, just put your heart on the page and be scared when you gotta, you know, bleed it later.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

But my mom told me a funny story this weekend um over Easter. She said, first of all, my parents think it's super cool, but also like, what the hell? Like, you have a podcast, you're writing a book, like, how did this transpire? Um, but they they've always known I'm um I do what I want kind of person. Um, especially being like the third kid. I'm just like, sorry guys, I'm beating like my own drum over here. But, anyways, she told me, she said, it is so brave of you that you want to share your book with people. I'm like, Yeah, it totally is brave, but also like that's how you raised me. And she said, Well, I could never do that. I'm like, Well, why not? And she said that in her college writing freshman year writing class, the professor literally just ripped her a new one in front of the entire class saying that she was a terrible writer. And she said, like from that day that she was so scared of writing. And later on in her professional like career, she had to do a lot of writing. And she asked her boss for like a writing coach, and he's like, They're like, Why? Like, you're great. And and she was terrified, but it was just that one person left such an impression on her that like 50 years later, she still remembers this story.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Oh my god, that's so like heartbreaking. I know college writing though, for a second. So I actually studied uh creative writing in my undergrad. And one of the beautiful things that I mean, obviously I learned things, uh things about writing. I learned, learned how to, you know, work with craft elements like point of view, um, things like that. But one of the best pieces that I learned from being in college was workshop. And workshop is a if you're unfamiliar with it in an academic sense, say you write a short story, uh, when you go to your workshop, everyone in the class, and I went to a small school, so there's like, you know, 13 people at our class, it was not that in that intimidating. Um, but everyone has read the story. If your story is up for workshop that night, then everyone comes prepared with things that they like about it, things that may not be working for them. And you just basically have like a Socratic discussion about the story and in terms of what you should do for revision then. And that was my first experience with like, oh god, like I people are gonna read my work. And it was a low-stakes environment. There was a professor that would sound much nicer than the professor that worked with your mom. Thank God for and I think I think that really prepared me down this author route of the feedback that I was gonna give. And it was done in a very safe environment too. And I think with the rise of a lot of indie authors that may or may not have had an education in creative writing, I don't think you need it. I think there's a lot of resources out there on the World Wide Web. I think I'm very grateful for the education that I received. Um, but if you want it, you're gonna find a way to educate yourself too, I believe. Um but the one thing that I I really did take away from my undergraduate experience was workshop. And, you know, Kate to your point about that, that anxiety of my work's gonna go out in the world. Like if you, I would say, like to any beginning writers out there that, you know, want to have that goal of publication, like if you could find a writing group, if you could find um anything that would mimic that that beta readers, anything that would mimic that idea of people are gonna read your work and give you feedback. Like I think there's a delicate balance between you need praise because that is our ego on the page, but you also need helpful critique. Like that's the whole purpose of, you know, ideally we want to get better. We don't want to hear that we suck, but you know, we what we do want to get better at our craft. And so get that feedback as early as you can and get used to that format of, you know, people are there to help you, not tear you down. And like, you know, Jenna, your mom experience. I'm so sorry for her.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

But I wonder if like the anxiety that you have, because obviously have not actually published my book yet, working on that. Um the anxiety that you have when you are releasing it out into the world, do you think it's like every piece of critique that you have ever received about you that's coming up? Or is it just your writing feelings coming up?

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Yeah. I mean, that's a really good question. And I think it's like I think and Megan, like tell me, or if you've experienced this, but it's like you you're so close to it at this point. And that you said this in one of your audio messages where you're like, if you like can't see it anymore and you're sick of it, it is time to get it out. Like there, you are probably ready. I think that you get so close to your work at that point that it's really hard for you to distinguish whether what's happening in it. So like I'm like up reading, I and in this panic moment, I was up at 2 a.m. reading chapters of my book on my phone. Like next to my husband. Over and over. Just reading it, being like, and what am I, is this okay? Is this okay? Like, is this what could they possibly say about, you know, and and I think the the best point to take away from what you just said too, Meg was just that like the critiquing groups just help you, they prepare you for that. You know, they definitely there there is like an element of like, even if you disagree, even if you think the feedback is whatever, it's like at least you are hearing something back. People are reading it and they're sending something back to you. Um so I thought like this whole time I thought I was so prepared. My question to you as well is like, do you read comments? We've asked this question a lot, but do you read reviews or comments or anything?

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Do you want the politically correct answer? No. Um, well, you're not supposed to. How about that? It is a very um heated debate on the writrely side of the internet that reader spaces are for readers, and writers should just make the work and leave them be, which I have my own thoughts and feelings about. Um but use me? Yeah, that's that's it, that's a thing. Um, I read mine. I stock my goodreads. Yeah. Like I said, I'm the I need the validation, you know? Did I do it right? And honestly, I will say, so I have, like you said, I've got two books out. My first book was called The Right Words. Um, they're both contemporary romance books. The first one is about two college students that are partnered together to write a love story for a contest. Um, there are some deeper elements like with all of her relationships that she has with her family and her friends, and um now this new love interest that she's experiencing. Um, but on the whole, it's it's a fairly cute story. Like it's fairly straightforward. Um and The Goodreads has has positive things to say about it. The my my sophomore novel, The Wingman, I took a lot more risks with it in terms of the structure of the book and um the subject matter. So The Wingman is about an artist that is returning to her college town, where she left right after graduation. So she's now back two years later, and she has to mend the relationships that she totally blew up when she left unannounced, not telling anyone that she was leaving, which includes her wingman, who was her best friend, might be someone she actually loves. So it's like their journey reconciling now that she's back in town. Um, but it's told in dual perspective and dual timeline. So you get their story when they were friends together in college, and now two years later is she's back. And it's very heavy on mental health themes. And um The Goodreads is not afraid to tell me that it wasn't for everyone. And I, in the beginning, I was like, wow, this hurts my soul. Because, like I said before, I bled on these pages too. There is a lot of research that went into that book to make sure it was done correctly. There was a lot of feelings behind that book. Um, and not everybody loved it. And my bruise little ego had to take a step back and be like, okay, I'm actually okay with the fact that there are very polarized discussions because if nobody cared about this book, they wouldn't say anything. And the fact that there's strong feelings coming from it, I'm like, I'm gonna take that one-star review. I'm gonna take that one-star review and run with it. So you do have to like kind of reframe your mindset a little bit and take the negative with the positive because if if they're talking negatively, at least they're talking.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

There you go. There's the soundlight.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

There it is. And then now, Kate, you're gonna go and you're gonna read your reviews and you're gonna panic. And then we're all gonna bolster you and be like, no, it means they're talking about you. You're like, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Well, this is like such a new experience. And sorry, there is a little bit of imposter syndrome of like, you know, like just a little bit, like, okay, well, I'm not traditionally published, so maybe I just don't belong in the room. Maybe I don't belong in that, you know, it was rejected by agents or whatever that is that you're telling yourself. Again, when I set out on this journey, I was not expecting this type of like thought, but it it does get into the conversation. I loved how you said that it what we question as like good or bad, right, like art, like which is so subjective and crazy. But I love how you said commercial because I think that is the right word to describe what we are trying to achieve. Does our writing sound commercial because that's what we're used to reading? We're used to hearing those voices, the commercial voices in our head, and not anything that really deviates from that. And that is, I don't think it sounds super commercial, to be honest. And that's probably why it didn't end up getting traditionally published. But that's not also what I want at the same time. I don't think I would be willing to like make those sacrifices. But there is like, okay, what's commercial writing and then what's my writing and what's your writing? And what's everybody's different voices? Um, so that's like such a takeaway for me. So thank you for saying that. And something we we talk a lot about here too, and I know you do on your podcast, um, is kind of just yeah, like that art, trying to make art in the industry, trying to sell books, make the commercial, make the good, like and and and make it mainstream, but also balancing what you want to put out in the world and how true that is to you and and and your in your story and what you are trying to accomplish. And like, what the hell, man?

SPEAKER_00 21:09

It's hard. Yeah, I um this is one of my favorite topics. So yeah, no, it's it's a it's a tough balancing act for sure to make sure that you are authentic to the craft that you want to be putting out there. But then if you don't care about anyone who picks up your book, write whatever you want to do. But if you care a little bit about, you know, your intended audience, you know, I think y'all said it earlier too, they're used to a certain commercial field. So, like, how do you how do you write commercially enough to break into that field, whether you are traditional or indie, but you have to get into readers' hands. But then how do you stay fresh enough and unique enough that they are drawn to your book, not Joe Schmoves down the road? Um, it's it's a tightrope for sure. And there's no, I don't think there's one right answer, unfortunately. Or four.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

This is gonna be like the most honest I've ever been on this podcast. Wait, I'm so excited for another joy.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Everyone's hey, cheers. We didn't do a cheers because I came on late.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Art and industry.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Um and the bullshit we put up with, but it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

Yeah. Okay, tell me.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Be honest.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Right. I was literally like said to my husband, I was like, I think with this book, I think I just want respect among my peers. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Yeah. Done. I was actually gonna ask you too, Kate. Um, when like you're talking about like the anxiety of uh, you know, that the postpartum anxiety of my my book babies going out into the world. Specifically, what piece of it do you think you are the most hung up on? Like, is it like I just want to make sure this book is well done enough so that way I get that respect, or was there something else that you think was, you know, keeping you up at 2 a.m.?

SPEAKER_01 22:55

There's a few things. So yeah, it's gonna do it. It is, it is like, okay, will my peers like this? Like, obviously, like we have this platform now, and so do you. You know, like you have you have um, you're involved in so many different communities in the in the writing world. Like you are somebody whose name we knew right away. Um you have a podcast, like you are like so involved in this industry and so involved in the community that it is like oh my gosh, with this, I just want people in the community and people in the industry to be like, I read Kate's book, it was great. And and if I do want it, like it's like terrifying. Yeah, I want this sort of respect of like, yeah, she's doing it and she's putting out some good stuff, and that's that's great. It it's not even about the readership, like I want readers to read it, but it's like you belong here, like that's what you want to hear. Yeah, and maybe that's the imposter syndrome too. Um I'm afraid of family reading it. I don't know about you guys, but I've got some spicy things that may or may not have happened in real life that everybody kind of knows that happened in real life. Okay, your level of spice. It's not it's spice, it's not is it half a chili pepper?

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Barely.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

But still, it's like to think of your mom or even grandmother. I don't know, or my mother-in-law, I don't know. Like somebody who knows me that has like this is the first thing I'm putting out, and they're like, oh yeah, Caitlin does that thing. Oh yeah, she writes books or whatever. I guess I'll read it. I'll I'll pick it up after my Freedom McFadden the summer. I'll I'll pick up Kate's book to say that I read it. And like they're like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

I end up not having the the spice element, but that Kate is one of my probably uh postpartum anxieties with my books are the people I know are gonna read this, and how much are they just gonna assume is fact, not fiction? Like, are they gonna take every terrible thing that's ever happened to my characters and every like dark thought that they've ever had and think that's what Meg thinks? Some of them, yes, some of them no, but like then having to like defend myself and like why am I in that position where like the people that I know then have to like separate, like just you know, my name's on the cover, but separate me as the artist from the art, like just enjoy the art. Like I want to stay behind that wall, but since I know you, I can't. That's my anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

That's such a good point. That's why, and that's why I am so thankful my debut novel will be a romanticy, because not a single thing in that can really be a parallel of my own life.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Yeah, you did it right. We did not.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

I did one thing right, and that was choosing a genre where I make up my own rules and it's very niche and it's pretty sexy.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

I love that that's what I want to consume. I'm just not good at writing it. That is not my strength. But I wish they taught that in the MFA. Like, and like I wish or in creative writing. I feel like when I graduated my MFA, I came out and like I knew how to write articles about how to review food. Or like there was a class on writing about food, literally. There was no actual skills taught. They were all just kind of like very niche subjects. They would be like, yeah, like write about food, or this class would be like writing about travel, or you know, and it was just kind of all these different, it just wasn't there, was not a class on querying. There was not a class on the industry itself.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Can we please have a Margs and Manuscripts online university where we teach people, which I know is so not your platform because you're like, we're just here to chat and it's fine. I'm so glad to be here. But I think there's an untapped market for that because you're so right. Like, and I I've talked about this before too. Like, again, like learning in the classroom, you have to start with the building blocks, you start with short form fiction, which is a whole new art form in its own, and a lot of professional writers stay there too. But there's just not enough time in a semester to learn how to write a book. Um, and then what do you do with it then? Like, what do you do? So, yeah, Marks and Manuscripts University, I would like to be enrolled in, please. That's you. That is all your yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Your podcast teaches shit. It is good. We don't teach shit. You are so smart. We just talk shit. It's fun. We just talk shit. We will open a bar for people who want to come read and talk shit. You need to start the online courses for sure.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Don't give me the idea. I love to stay busy.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Clearly. Are you don't you we're in the right room because who the hell has time for this? Apparently we do. We make the time. Hey, can we um talk about imposter syndrome?

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Yeah. You mean like the little like tick track that's like going on in my brain at all points of the day.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

I have a theory. I think I think we all have it, obviously. Um, and I think it's Kate to your point too about worrying if you're good enough. I guess the the little bit of the saving grace we can all have is probably assume that everyone does, because at the end of the day, even like our New York Times best-selling novelists today that are probably feeling that way might have a little bit of that because we weren't the first ones to do it. Like back to that how we started the conversation. Like, who decided that good writing was good writing? Who decided that the novel was the form that it was supposed to be? This goes all the way this I'm gonna get real nerdy. This goes all the way back um to like when the novel was first started in like Victorian era literature. Like they were the greats, they did it first. And at the end of the day, I think we're all gonna strive that perfectionism and that that imitation is the highest form of flattery, because we weren't the first to do it. And as fresh as we can pretend to be, like we never did it first. So I guess maybe there's some comfort in the fact that we're all gonna strive to something that we can never achieve because we're all just, you know, following a pattern that was set way before us.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Yes. And with like design, like my background, or even just like any form of media, people may hate me for saying it, but nothing is original anymore. All it is is just like a mashup, you shake it up and you repackage it.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

And like it's exactly. Talk about like your query package that you have to give in your letter, and you have to provide comp titles. Like my book would sit on the shelf next to this book because it has these themes, and next to this book because it's told in this style. Like, that's what commercial novel writing is is how does it fit in the puzzle piece that we as readers have already laid the foundation for because that's what we like to read. Like there's a comfort in reading. Like, yeah, we like to be challenged in some ways, but sometimes you just want to pick up the comfort book that that follows that formula. And where do those books fit on the shelves?

SPEAKER_02 29:54

And we're not like trying to write like a couture version of a novel. Like, we don't need to rethink the wheel here.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Well, that's exactly like again, as as fresh as we want to be, and we can pull in new tricks and and and experiment with things new to us, we're not gonna, like you said, Jenna, we're not gonna reinvent the wheel. Like the novel is what the novel is, and that's why we all love it. Like, so let's let's enjoy the fact that it's it's a form that we all know, and it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

Mm-hmm. And I maybe it's uh imposter syndrome is I maybe uh female writers are more susceptible to such things than male writers, but but I think it's just the you're never allowed to be a hundred percent confident, either based off of past experiences of like, hey, maybe you got like the shit kicked out of you, or it's the no, you're just not allowed. That just means that just means you're a little haughty or something. So when you're having these inner dialogues, it's like, well, I think it's great. I know it's great, but will you think it's great? And it's it's like why? Like, why are we doing that extra step? Like just and I'm I'm saying this like from a soapbox that I'm absolutely like should be sitting in front of instead. Um, but what else are we supposed to do with our brains? Like, where can we put this energy of imposter syndrome that just is constant?

SPEAKER_00 31:31

I think it's just finding a way to because it is constant, it's just finding a way to live with it and rationalize it. And it doesn't, it doesn't make you any less then for having it. And if the reason it doesn't make you any less than is because we all have it, I, you know, so so be it. Um, but I think, you know, Kate, you and I talked about this earlier too. Like a little bit of that blending of the art and industry, if you care so much about the work that you put out into the world, you obviously have a passion behind it and you're you're creating work, you know. Well, I was about to say you're creating work for the right reasons. And the right reason isn't that you need the validation of everyone's gonna like it. Like, no, you're creating for the reason because you you care enough about hoping that it's received well. And I think this is where the industry starts to come in a little bit too, when you're creating the art for the dollar without the love behind it. And there's nothing wrong with creating art for the dollar. Like we we need the dollar, but if you don't have that passion and love behind it, then you lose that care for the product that you create at the end of the day. And if you don't have imposter syndrome because you don't have that care, well then I think you're doing something wrong. Like if you have that imposter syndrome because you you care about what you're putting out into the world, you you are there for the right reasons because it is important to you.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Yeah, I totally, I totally agree with you. And I think too, when it comes to the dollar, it's it's kind of telling yourself that what you're putting out there should cost money at the end of the day. Because if you if you don't, if you say, I am willing to do this for free because I just fucking love it. And that's and that could be very well true for most of us. I'm sure we all would be willing to do it for free. But then we are setting that bar that people will just do this for free and you shouldn't have to pay to be able to consume it, and they don't need a living as well to do it. So I think as artists, we have to both like create our as if we were gonna do it for free, but also maintain the standard that this should cost money, or else nobody's gonna be paying money for it, which then what do we do?

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Yes, you can't you can't live off of good vibes, like not sustainable, not a great diet. So when so when you have to like actually put the dollar amount of like this is how much my ideas are worth, that's the hard part. It's putting a price tag on a non-tangible good.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Well, and like for me starting the editing business too, that was so hard. Oh my gosh, that was so hard figuring out how I'm gonna like I did a lot of research, like where am I gonna price my services? And I purposely started low. Like I started real low because I'm like, I have the education, I have the background. I was um again when I was in college, I worked in the tutoring center. I worked for our school literary magazine, like I felt like I had done a lot of things post-grad to like further further my own education. Um, so I felt pretty confident going into it, but at the same time, like I want to be so fair. I love to underpromise and over-deliver. It is a wonderful moral compass. It is a terrible business model. Um so I started low and I use those first couple clients. I'm like, hey, like I'm full disclosure, I'm just starting off. You're getting my prices at X dollar for now because I'm need experienced. Um, everyone was that I signed at the beginning, very cool, very awesome. And I've slowly started to, you know, build the price because I found myself like this isn't my day job. I do have a full-time job, and this is something I love doing and I love teaching and I love working with new authors. And because I I love that feeling of, hey, I found the hole here, and here's a suggestion on how to fix it, but I love it even more when they found it too. Like if they can take my notes and then apply it to their own work, then I feel like I've won. Um, so I I chase that high of, you know, living in that creative space, but there's only so many hours in a day. So I've gotten to the point and I'm like, these are my rates, and it's so scary when I send a bill to be like, I gotta stay behind it because I'm blending art and industry, and this is okay. I gotta give myself permission because there's just, I mean, if I had all the time in the world, I would do it all for free, but I can't and I don't. And uh to that wonderful conversation and the the analogy of the music too, like that really hit home for me just now. Be like, it is okay to charge what you're worth and still be an artist.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Absolutely. But that's I I feel like that's the most impostery thing that we have in our head because you're just like, wait a minute. Am I worth it? Am I worth it? I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

I'm so sorry for sending you a bill.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

I'm so sorry. I think that's such a great example though, with the editing, because you are in and it's like even even within your own community, like saying, like, here are my services, I know it's tight, and I know that you're trying to create something here, and but like I'm like this is what I'm worth. Like, and so there's even that kind of empathy for for what you know, just being in the community and stuff. So I totally get that. We've we've had these conversations about like scaling our brand and in the in the podcast and kind of like what the next steps are, but and so that's like a really hard conversation with yourself. I totally get that. Yeah, I totally get that.

SPEAKER_02 36:55

Um and maybe, maybe Marg's university. Maybe that's what's gonna fund it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

With the editing, I think that you are in it for the right reasons too. Whereas I feel like there are a lot of editors because I have approached them. Where you immediately are just like, This is a lot of money for not what I'm expecting, or like kind of not what I'm getting. I'm not, I'm not getting what I think this amount of money, because it can be very expensive, is worth. I would love to do a whole episode on actually like picking an editor at some time.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Yeah, I um I'm probably not the most professional sometimes. I'm like, I just want to be your best friend. Like I just want to hype you up. Like I want to know what's going on. Like if you're done with me and you've moved on to the next step, I still want your number to be like, hey, how's it going? Like, is there a pre-order link yet? Like, can I buy your book? Like, I'm so happy for you. Like, I'm obnoxious, actually. My comments, I do a lot of comments that are, I hope, constructive and informative, but also just like hype girl and like read a reaction. So you open my document, you're like, overwhelmed. But um, it's it's and I hope it's a good mix. And that's it's the same way that you know your writing style is tailored to you. That's my editing style. I'm I'm very involved. Um, so if you don't like that, I'm not for you. But that's why. That is why when you are picking an editor, you should always find an editor that will do a sample chapter or two. Two. More, more Marg's uh university life notes. Um find an editor.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

You learned something today.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Shit, we weren't supposed to do that. Not just feelings, it's not just feelings today. Um request a sample chapter, see if they're fit. I exactly. I feel like this could be literally an entire episode. I think we could also do a whole episode on um the all the different ways authors make money.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

That is an excellent episode. Find ways to be so involved with their community and simultaneously monetize it too. And that's like a whole nother level of brain power and marketing and commercialism that I can't even wrap my head around. I'm like, I would love to know how to do that. And like some people's brains are just wired for that, and I'm not, I'm in my Google Docs, like just giving you giving you thumbs ups. So, little plug for the architecture of story. That was my passion project, Brainchild. Um, last year when I started the editing business, I um started meeting with clients and over the phone, via email. And my first question is, what actually my first question that everyone hates is what do you think you're doing great in your story? Everyone hates that question. Um, and then the second follow-up question is, what do you think you need help with for improvement? Or like what do you what do you want me to be reading for? And the overwhelming response is I want to make sure that my story makes sense and I want to make sure my story flows um to my super nerdy brain. That means I want to make sure that my story has structure. Hence the architecture of story was formed as kind of a free educational platform to, and it works in tandem with the editorial services because I do have to charge for those. I don't charge for the podcast, like, you know, teach teach Amanda Fish. Um, I want you to know the things that I've learned too. And so it was a limited series um podcast. I would love to revisit it at some point and do a season two. Right now it's just a first season because I'm very busy editing and I haven't had time to even think about a season two. Um, but that that platform was so much fun to put together because every episode was done with another author. And I felt like I did a lot of research going into each episode of like the structures that existed in the world that I wanted to talk about for each episode, but then doing it with another author, I learned so much too. Um that was a lot of fun. And so I hope, you know, it was helpful to other people too, because it was helpful for me putting it together.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

For sure. Yeah, and if you haven't listened to it yet, I would be surprised. Architecture of a story is um Meg's podcast, and it's it is super informative. But um, when I was first kind of jumping on this journey, I definitely knew Meg through that um more than anything. So it was really cool. Um and Hot Girls Who Writes. Yes, another famous plug. We need to get more involved with them because we started out as WFWA, um did a touch of novel bound and stuff. So yeah, we love exploring new communities. And now we've found all of you guys and Alyssa, both Alyssa, like, oh my gosh. So Hot Girls Who Write, you guys are you guys are killing it.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

It's a lot of fun. Um Alyssa Deragottis' uh brainchild baby was Hot Girls Who Write. It was an online writing community um that you can access through Patreon, and we meet pretty much every week. Twice a month is weekly write-in, so we just have an hour of writing time, clock in, say hi to everyone. Um, and then once a month is an author interview, and another once a month is um a workshop where we learn things. Um, but we also have a very active Instagram uh group chat. And so it's it's a great, like just finding your community and surrounding yourselves with like-minded individuals and writers and aspiring dreamists, um, but also just like other people in the industry too. This is a group that I wish I had when I was first starting off and Googling so many things. Like now I could just go to the group chat, and odds are someone has the answer to how do I buy an ISBN number if I don't know. Um and that's that's what I think one of the we've talked about a lot of ugly things today so far about imposter syndrome and that anxiety of putting your child into the world. Um, but I do think one of the beautiful things, especially in the indie author and and traditional authors too, um, because we have a mix in that group too, there's not a lot of gatekeeping. Like I feel like, and maybe I'm just jaded in, or sorry, maybe I'm just naive enough to think that, you know, every writer's like this, but I've been lucky enough that the writer friends that I've made this past year genuinely want to share their knowledge because I feel like we all have a common audience, we all have a common goal, and that's our readers, and readers are always hungry for more. So if my book is like Kate or Jenna's, I'm gonna share my audience with them and hype them up on my platform. Or if they have a question, we can go back and forth a little bit because it's not like one person buys one book and they're never buying anything else again, back to our dollar. Um odds are they're gonna want to read the next one and the next one and the next one. So it it is nice that there is a lot of support in the writer community, I feel like now.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

So well said. Yeah, all the stuff you're just like yeah, yeah, because it is a kind of it, it is a big step in the beginning to kind of look for the community. You don't know where to start looking. You're just Googling things. Um and and but there are a lot you can be a part of, and you don't have to be a part of just one. You can find the one that works for you the most, but the collect connections more. Yeah, there's honestly collection uh there's there's connections everywhere. Um And I know speaking for me and Jana, we've made like truly the coolest, the most awesome friends through all of it. So I'm trying to think of other things. This is kind of like where we would be like, what do we want to add? Like, is there things we didn't chat about?

SPEAKER_02 44:19

Um Yeah, do you want to um plug anything? Oh, your books.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

Oh. Where can they get them? I feel like you haven't done your books yet. There's the as soon as you said, do you want to plug anything? I'm immediately thinking about the rest of my friends I haven't talked about. So I'll just go there first. My other friend I haven't talked about yet is Taryn Christine because she's actually the first online writer friend that I made, the first other platform that I found. She runs a podcast called The Wanna Be Author, and she's actually how I found Hot Girls Who Write. Um, I was lucky enough to know Alyssa Deragottis already because we're both local to Charlotte, North Carolina, and we had met kind of through our local bookstore. Um, but Taryn is another dear friend of mine. So if you are listening here on not Marg's University yet, but Marg's and Manuscripts, um, go check out the Wannabe Author as well.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Yes, Karen, we also want to be your best friend and we should team up. We also love you and we need to do a team up.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

Yes. I yes, absolutely. Um, my books you can find a couple different places. Um, Warren Publishing is my publisher. You can find them on their website. Um, you can find them on the Amazon. You can find them in several local indie bookstores to Charlotte, North Carolina, which is where I'm from. Um if you're not local to Charlotte, and um you can go to any of your Bards and Noble type stores and they can order it for you. Um my website is meggosenthal.com. You can find more information about my books, my editorial services, and then links to all the architecture of story podcast episodes are there as well. Um TikTok is a pure dumpster fire if you want to follow me there at MegRosenthal.author. Um, Instagram is a little more professional at Meg Rosenthal Author. And um yeah, I think that's it. You might find some horses, because I do I do horses too. But most some books do.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

It's so cool. We're the same with TikTok. I'm always like, I'm always like, I don't know, just dump, dump it in there. I don't I'll be like, did we post it? I don't know, just go dump it on TikTok.

unknown 46:29

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

Just like who cares when you post it? Just make it dump it look like we're sh trying.

SPEAKER_01 46:35

I get that.

SPEAKER_02 46:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

TikTok is just pure chaos for me.