Discovery Writing, Outlining & Trusting Your Characters | Lauren Okie

What happens when your characters know the story before you do?

This week, we sit down with romance author Lauren Okie to talk about discovery writing, outlining, second drafts, and learning to trust your creative instincts. From writing Tropesick while querying her debut novel to protecting the creative spark in a publishing industry full of distractions, Lauren shares an honest look at the realities of writing books that surprise both the author and the reader.

Lauren Okie didn't set out to write a book about tropes.

She set out to write characters compelling enough to tell her where the story wanted to go.

In this episode, Lauren joins Jenna and Cait to discuss the writing process behind Tropesick, her approach to discovery writing, and why she believes character should always come before plot. The conversation explores outlining versus improvisation, second drafts, deleting scenes you love, and the challenge of protecting creativity in an industry that often prioritizes metrics over art.

For writers, this episode is packed with practical advice on trusting your instincts, identifying what belongs in your story, and finding your way through the messy middle of drafting a novel.

For readers, it's a fascinating behind-the-scenes look at the mind of an author whose stories blend romance, humor, grief, and literary ambition.

In This Episode

•  How Lauren Okie developed the concept for Tropesick
•  Writing a second novel while querying a debut 
•  Discovery writing versus outlining 
•  Why character should drive story 
•  Learning to trust your creative process 
•  The role of second and third drafts 
•  Identifying duplicate scenes and unnecessary subplots 
•  Craft books that changed Lauren's approach to writing 
•  Romance as a vehicle for complex, meaningful storytelling 
•  Protecting the creative spark in publishing 

Books & Authors Mentioned

• Tropesick — Lauren Okie 
• The Best Worst Thing — Lauren Okie 
• You Between the Lines — Katie Naymon 
• Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow — Gabrielle Zevin
• Refuse to Be Done —  Matt Bell

Memorable Quotes

"Every book I start is a partial lobotomy."

"You can't understand the story until you've written the whole book."

"At the end of the day, it's you and the blank page."

"You need to romanticize the hell out of writing this book."

About Lauren Okie

Lauren Okie is the author of The Best Worst Thing and Tropesick. Known for emotionally layered romance, sharp humor, and character-driven storytelling, Lauren's work explores grief, love, creativity, and the stories we tell ourselves about happily ever after.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

So it's up. I'm just eating a piece of sourdough bread that I just got at the bakery.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

I just fucking finished this book. Oh my god. Really? Oh my god, dude. Did it ruin you? It ruined I now I have to talk to this woman. Oh my god. Without giving away spoilers. I am I am I'm I'm shook. I am unwell. Oh my god, I can't wait. I can't wait to read it. Oh my gosh, dude. I and now I have to wait a month until it comes out and like I can I can talk to the world about this book because it's so good. It is it's so good. Hey Laura! Hi, hi guys, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Oh my gosh, the sweater. Perfect. I know. I'm just learning. Um it's always you never know how you're gonna appear on like the different recording platforms. So how are you guys?

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Thrilled. We're so excited you're here. Thank you. Um we were just chatting. And we got this lovely bound, my first ever bound manuscript in Jonna's. Oh, yeah. Bound manuscript.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

I know. I've never I've never had one. I don't think I've ever had a truly bound. Sometimes they call them bound manuscripts, but they're arcs. They're just like not, they're not yeah, I have a few of those, but I've never had like the real one.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

And I feel like now I have a little special edition of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

They are special.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

I've only seen you all have them, and then another reader I know like I feel like I feel like I'm in Devilwear's Prada, like when I like am reading the she has the Harry Potter manuscript delivered to him. Yeah, yeah, seriously. Um my twin's gonna do with one copy.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Literally. It's a very question. It is a very good question.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

So I'm not gonna lie because I can't hide it, but right before you came on, I always finished like who's coming, like I finished their book literally 10 minutes before I they sign up. Are you okay? I'm not okay. Thank you for asking.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

That's okay. Yeah, the last 20% is uh is a wild, is a wild ride. So I don't give anything away. I won't give anything. Okay, I won't give anything away. There's only I'll say this. There's only one rule in romance. The rest, just whatever. Whatever.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

That's it. I'm just literally chomping at the bit. That was the first thing I said to Jenna because I was like, how am I gonna wait a month to be able to talk about this with the whole world? Because people are gonna talk.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

I got tagged in something today where I guess some people had done like a buddy read on Discord, and it was very, very funny. Um, so they like sent me some stuff and it was great.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

A lot of our listeners are pre-published, either working on their first manuscript or they're self-published. Or the coolest part about being able to chat with you today is when you guys do get the opportunity to read this book, it is a love letter to the literary world in so many ways. It's so beautiful how you put this together. I have literally so many questions, and I'm don't know how I'm going to ask you questions without giving away anything. Um, but the first thing we really wanted to ask you is how did you pitch this? How was this book born? Was this idea born?

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Yes. Yeah. Okay, so it's not my first novel. Right. I my my debut novel, the first book I ever wrote in earnest is my debut, The Best Works Thing. So I had started a few books like as a child. And then again in my 20s, that like did not get anywhere. And then I started another book in earnest in 2000 and I don't know, 22, that I could not finish because I made like fatal mistakes, which was like the banter was good, characters were hot, setting was good, but I had no idea what the characters wanted. And it just like it just poisoned every scene, like even when everything was going. I was like, it's also it's really hot, and it's like literally about nothing. But it was like very and and I think it was like a fatal blow. And so I was like, let me take everything I learned about like scene building and actually give these characters, you know, desires that that are like trackable. And so I ended up writing my debut like that, but I wrote my debut, you know, um, on spec, just like because I'm insane, like most people write their books with no agent. And so I didn't know what would happen. Um, and so while I was querying, I started working on TropeSec, like to just stay busy, like so that I wasn't just refreshing query tracker like every three minutes. Like that was able to get me down to like every 10 minutes, like by working on this other project. Um, and so I wrote the first draft of that in a few months. And then by the time I had finished the first draft, I had an agent for my first book. By the time I was working on the second draft, I knew even if we didn't sell my debut that this would likely go out on submission. Um, which I think um, but at that point the book was already, the book was already like the book was already written. Like the idea for this book, uh uh Katie Neyman is one of my like closest friends, the author who wrote You Between the Lines. And the my first idea for this book, this was years before I met Katie, it's like very, very similar to this. And I wanted to do very similar to her debut, which is that they're competing like MFA, they're in an MFA poetry program together and they're like writing poems at each other. And my original idea for this book was that Katie's twin brother had passed away, and she meets up with she's taking like a poetry class, like a continuing ed, like very cheap, like at the community college poetry class. And there is a man there who was her brother's, her dead brother's best friend, and he is like a published author, super, super successful, but he's been having horrible writer's block. And so his agent told him to take this like community poetry low stakes class to like just get, and then they end up like kind of screaming at each other through poem. And it's so similar to that's not the same setup as Katie's book, but it's like the same poetry at each other premise. And that lived in my brain for about a week. And then I was like, oh my God, if you're gonna do trope play, like do trope play, they should be writing a romance novel. Like, not you know what I mean? Like, and so it just sort of evolved from there. Um, and then when I sat down to start writing, which is like weird. Like when I write, it's such like an improv class. I'm like, okay, like like on the screen, like people just start like showing up. Like Pino the Cat just like showed up on page, and I was like, all right, Pino the Cat. Like, so there there is an element of surprise to me. I'm not like a huge plotter. I usually have like enough of a concept or a structure that I can like. I always think about like writing as like, oh, it's like the pilot tape, like it's a pilot episode. If you're thinking of like a 10-part series, like I should be able to generate a pilot without knowing much, just because I think that like I don't know, like ideas need to have like some element of like kinesis, like they need to be self-fulfilling, where like I write one scene and they propel the next scene. Like, if an idea is not doing that, then it's probably not a book. Totally. Yeah. And how did I pitch this? I mean, I pitched it in a very glib, subversive way, which is like very, very similar to like the deal memo, which is like an all-grown-up girl next door is forced to ghostwrite a love story with her dead brother's best friend in forced proximity, only to learn that like all of the tropes that they're writing into their book are coming true. So it's kind of sort of like because I think like the benefit of tropes and like the title of the book or whatever is that like um tropes do so much that you're like, oh, this is a literally a book. This is a rom com. And then beneath the surface, it's gonna subvert all of that. And it's very obvious, like simply by by denoting that the that the um the brother is dead. Like that's just this immediate instant subversion of brother's best friend, which is like, oh, it's still brother's best friend, it's just gonna be in, it's just gonna be a huge mess, you know? Um, and so I think I think this book sort of like pitched itself, which is sort of lovely. So yeah. Now that's like my nine-minute answer to your question.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

I I just attended a TED talk. That was exactly what I needed today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

It feels that I love when you said that you that it's like an improv thing experience for you because it totally reads like that in the best way. I think it like, now that I've read the product of what you like are talking about, like you it's it's you continually surprise the reader. And it's not like if you're you're listening, it is not um a typical rom com. It is in the best way, and you start reading it thinking, like, okay, I got I know, I know what I know the story. Like, I know obviously it's a trope, like they're all tropes, and but you don't at all. You don't even know.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

And that's kind of like the fun thing. I mean, so many people will tag me when they're like 20% in. They're like, I can't stop laughing. And I'm like, that is not gonna hold. Like, you know, like it is, like, that is a love. Like it, and it but I think to me, trope stick is so much about like I think there is this misunderstanding in the not in the romance community, but even like for me as as an author, and it like for anyone else who's writing romance, which is that like we can't we can't talk or do hard things, um, right? Or that we need to like sand down those edges. And then it's like, I don't know, like listen to the new no con album. Like, yeah, yeah, like actually there is a bigger appetite for like than we realize. And like there is a lot of safety and comfort in delivering those experiences to people, like with at least one promise, which is like guy's gonna get the girl. Do you know what I mean? Like the rest of it is whatever, like we're going on an adventure, but like they're gonna have each other at the end. Like, do you trust me? Right. And I think um the romance genre is so big, and I find it like very, very, very exciting that now more than ever, there is literally a book for every type of reader just within the genre, right? And it's like, and and for me, like as someone like who I like, I studied literature in college, like I read really, really broadly. Um, and like I personally, and like Kate, now you can attest to this, am interested in pulling in all sorts of literature into my romance work, you know, and so like there's a lot of like Fitzgerald play on this. Tyler is a speculative fiction writer. He's really interested in like organs outside of the body. Like, there's all sorts of like weird interests that these characters have. And it's like, I don't think like that those things need to be removed from a novel just because it's a romance novel. Like, I like we all deserve to go on literary adventures, and then there's the one rule, you know, and so like that, and that I think hopefully like goes back to to like that improv idea, which is like I think that spirit of writing for me allows me to maintain like a sense of adventure as a novelist who hopes to do this long term. And I hope that like that sense of adventure, which is like when I'm as surprised as you are like are, right? When something weird happens in the book, like comes like I I believe that the reader can feel that, right? And so it's it's also why I won't outline. I just don't do it. I don't do it, guys. Like every time I try, like it's just bad. And it's not that I don't like have vibes, like synthesis, I know where I'm, but where I'm going is never as important as where the book takes me. Like I'm always willing to turn sharp. Do you know what I mean? If like something else appears. That's like so trust me, it is the easier, softer way. Like, I know a lot of people who are like, no, no, no, the outline, the outline. I honestly believe that like once your characters tell you what to do, like the work is done. Like that is right. I'm like, all right, go live your life and I will report it, you know? And yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

It's like you almost the development of the characters is what develops the story almost, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Right, because it's character first. And so it's one of those things where like I just finished writing like a nameless, faceless project that I don't know if I'm allowed to talk about. And and it's one of those things where for a while I was like, is it better? Is it worse? Like, I so so desperately wanted to kind of like rank it in my microcanon that I've been working on for the past few years, and and it's like, oh, it doesn't really matter, does it? Because this is the story, right? Like, of course, every every reader can rank their M hands, like they have, you know what I mean, like they're gonna have their their ranking, and that's based on like your personal experiences. But if we are delivering like character-first love stories every time, like how do you write? It's like it's really a matter of preference. Like, there are so it's about like what it took for these characters to like find their way to each other. Like, that's the lift of the story. And so, like, it's really like comparing I don't know. I just like I don't and I think there's like this huge relief for me at like talking this about like with writer friends about being like, oh, evaluating your work through superlatives. So instead of being like, this book is better than my last, or this book is worse than my last, but like this is my sexiest book yet. Oh, like this is my most mature book yet. Oh, like this is my most um self-aware book yet. Like this is my most, I don't know, campy, but like right, and it's just like, oh, like thinking of it in that way, which is like your your book has all sorts of things going for it that are like new and special, even if it's not your most um like technically ambitious or like structurally complicated or something like that, you know. And I think like for me after writing a book like TropeSic, which is structurally very complicated and like non-linear timelines, like lots of plot twists, there's like different types of narration. Um, I sort of felt like I was like I was kind of nervous to write like a simple book after that because I'm like, oh, like the reader expectation is gonna be that I'm always gonna do some really like complex, challenging, wild thing. Um, but like at the end of the day, it's like what we said. It's like, no, like you make the book as weird as the character's love story requires. Do you know what I mean? We don't like set out to be like, I'm gonna make a weird book. It's like, no, I'm gonna tell this story, and the story will tell me how to craft like the structure of the book. And that includes like flashbacks and like right, like putting like media cutouts, like newspaper articles, and but like there's all sorts of times where that's necessary, and sometimes it's just like not the story. So I'm like trying to learn how to be like more less judgmental of my work and more like character focused because I think it allows us to evaluate our work like more kindly, you know.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

I love that. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

My kid, are you okay?

SPEAKER_02 15:22

Can we need to have that? I'm sorry. I um uh yeah, I need to hear that for sure.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

But what is going on? Should we are we do should we do some manuscript therapy?

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Like no, and and like I've everybody that we interview, it's been it's been a journey for me because my my book comes out at the end of this month. And so um this whole journey of the podcast and like getting to talk to authors at at all levels and and uh points in their journey has been like me getting the best advice or like just soaking in like what their experience has been and like me getting to ask them about different parts of the journey that I'm going through. And it's been so nice and catheter experience. Anyway, hearing that has been really has been really great.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

And it's like you also get the perspective, you get like we get such like a unique perspective, not just like a pitch me your book, like tell me what it's about, but it's really just the people behind it. Like that's why we like we even made this podcast is because we wanted to like connect with authors and agents and other readers, like as individuals, how they create. And it yes, it gets absolutely absurd and unhinged sometimes, but like it's also just like there's there's no barrier to entry, there's no gatekeeping, it's just like tell us how you're feeling because it's where we're all at, like we're all writers, so clearly we're all feelers.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

So yeah, and hearing your approach is fascinating, especially after reading this, and especially thinking about the romance genre. And I I love the idea that you're like it's just because it's romance, it doesn't mean that it's not elevated. And I think that what I loved about this is that it's it's romance, and you are proving that you can still have things to say in your work and have there's like a line in the book where Meredith calls Tyler out on this, like early in the book, where he's like, She's like, Let me guess you don't read romance, and he's like, No.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Can I refer to? Um Right. And it's the longer he's like, Oh, like we're like, she says something. I think she says it, maybe he says it, where she's like, Let me guess you think a book's not worth your time if it doesn't like teach you something new about the world, like something like that, like as if there's not some right, as if it's like as if every romance novel has the same lesson. Yeah. I learned which is just like total BS. Yeah. And then I think um it was so fun to write Tyler because he's so clearly wrong, right? Like he's so clearly wrong. But it's also, but the book takes like is a slow drip of him learning why he's wrong. And I think, like, more importantly, he I'm able to put in his mouth like all of the rude things that have ever been said to me about my passion and my life's work, and then let a character like Meredith, who is essentially like somebody combined, like Nora Roberts, Jay Gatsby, and Stephen King, and like threw her in the Hamptons, right? So like she's just printing money, and like she doesn't give a shit what you think, you know? And like, and she's gone to Iowa Writers Workshop, like she had she went to Princeton, like she has all of this pedigree. And there's this moment where they're like, she's looking at these novels with Tyler, at least like fancy, fancy literary novels, and he's like in all of them, and she's like, I could do that, you know, and it's like it has never once occurred to Tyler, who's outside of the genre, that like we're not writing romance because we're bad, like we're writing romance because we choose to. And you know what I mean? And it is it is not like a different, it is not like this like sharp left turn, you know what I mean, from being an author. It's just like where like romance writers want to spend their time. It's like where they're interested in doing the work. And I think it was so so satisfying for me to kind of like create mouthpieces for this argument. And obviously, I'm not the first person to do it. It's been happening in in literature forever, but there was something about Meredith's power, like the power dynamic that she had over Tyler, where Tyler would like kind of deign to um insult the genre in this in the palace that romance built, right? And like in in this Hamptons house, which is like a bazillion dollars, um, that is like sort of um subversive in the way that I want the novel to be, right? Where like everything has just been sort of turned on its head um for this like pseudo-intellectual man, you know. And then of course he's just down bad, yearning and pathetic, because like even he cannot resist a spunky redhead, because like the genre tells us so, you know, and I think there's so much fun to be had there. Have you guys read into the blue yet? I mean, uh no. I don't know what the face of me. Okay, all right. Well, we'll talk later, but there's this line in there, they're comedians, where she says something like the funniest thing you can say is the truth. And I'm just like uh yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, right? Where it's just like so many of these self-aware books do that, and it makes for such a fun, satisfying read to be like, mm-hmm, you know.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

That's what I literally I am not somebody who marks up books at all, but I'm believing exactly what you're talking about. I literally was like, when he says, you know what, which Meredith says, you know what I think, Tyler, when I sit down to write, and she said, Haven't I suffered enough?

SPEAKER_01 20:59

Meredith is such a king. Oh my okay, please tell me.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Just telling this to this like long-suffering short story writer who went to Brown and is like covered in body and tattoos, and then like Nicole Kidman is just like, you're a fool, and he has to just eat it, you know. You know, we love to see them, we love to see them look stupid.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Oh, it's very satisfying.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

But um, can I ask you if I'm correct in this? I'm getting hashtag team just vibes from Tyler a lot.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Yes, that's in the marketing where like just but worse is the hashtag. Um yeah, and I I think it's because they are all built from the same intellectual bad boy Jack Kerouac teenage prototype. Yes. Um, they're all built from that, you know, like the performative paperback in the back pocket used bookstore, you know, like that sort of like um ruin your life. That vibe, and I think like a lot of that is like you know, early era Conrad Fisher, like that, you know. I it it I think when I was talking to my marketing team about this, and when I was like, okay, imagine the boy who ruined your life was secretly in love with you, like that is the fantasy, right? Like that is the fantasy we're selling. Like the guy in high school who was like never wanted you and always hurt you. And well, it turns out he's been secretly timing for you for eight years, right? And it's like, oh, and I think the work in this book was to like pull in all of these sort of like fantastical romance desires that the reader had and that Katie would have as a voracious romance reader, right? As somebody who was ingesting two of these a day on summer vacation, like when her froncolobe was like doing all of its initial processing, is like, right, this is the way she sees the world, petals on the bed when she loses her virginity. Like that, like right, like this is the plan. Like she's been reading YA, you know, and and I think um, like I wanted to deliver on all of that, like like the kicking and screaming, right? Of like, I can't believe it's me, I can't believe he picks me. Um, but I wanted it to be like grounded, you know, like I also wanted it to be able to hold up in real life. Like, oh, if these tropes were actually true and I injected them into this like nothing Long Island town, and the brother was dead, like what would that have looked like? Do you know what I mean? Like, actually, like what is the in like and like with the interior of being like, I'm a big believer in like you can do anything you want in a work of fiction as long as you're you and the characters are like committed to the bit, like Sky Daddy, where she wants to bang the plane. Like, do you know what I mean? And it's like, well, if you're gonna do that for 400 pages and you're gonna own it, like you're gonna get a book club. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like go like do it. Like, you need to be a believer if you want your readers to believe. And so, like, it to me, like the interior work is like, okay, well, like, what does it look like for Katie and Tyler to actually be these tropes? Because like, it's not gonna be one-dimensional. They're they have to be nuanced people. Like, Katie is sunshine, she can still scream at people and tell you to f off. Do you know what I mean? Like, just because she's a speck of glitter doesn't mean that she's not like angry. You know what I mean? And so, like a golden retriever can still bark. I've seen it happen. It's very weird. A golden retriever lunged at me um the other day on a walk, and I was like, no. Like, I'm like, you need to reprint this.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

But the glitch in the matrix.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Yeah, I'm like, okay. Um, but yeah, I think like that is so much of the fun of this book. Like for me, that sense of adventure that kept me writing is being like, okay, well, like even if if these characters were like 3D printed from their tropes, like, but then they went and lived. So now they've been weathered in a very specific way that's only that has nothing to do with their tropes, right? That has to do with just their lived experiences. And so I wanted all of that to show up on the page. And it kept me very busy, which is what you want to be as a writer. You want to be busy. You don't want to be, you don't want to be fluffing. You want like you want there to be work to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Like you were almost trying to like keep up with them.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah. This one was brutal too, I will say, because like my debut was non-linear, but single POV. And this was non-linear, two POVs, plus there are extra little, like, I don't know what we would call them, um, but like there's these little sections, mini sections of the tropes that they're writing. And so when I had to edit it, like whenever my editor was like, what about? And I'd be like, oh, because it would be like a month of work to make one small change because of all of like the different, like it was like a train set, right? And it's like, oh, we like tweaked one thing and like the whole, like the whole roller coaster is derailed. Um, so lovely, lovely to edit. Just like a real truly a labor of love to um write this and then change it. Um, but and that's probably why my next book, I'm like, should read mine. Um, but I think what I'm most proud of when I think about this book is like I had this idea for the structure of it in my head. And then I spent like a year chasing it, like, and it just was falling short, falling short, falling short. Like, right, I had this idea, and like, do you guys read tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow? Yeah. Okay. So they talk when Sadie talks about building, like, she talks about her like video game engineering, and it she says at some point the narrator says that her taste exceeded her capabilities. And so she was constantly trying to engineer something that she was not yet capable of, like, right. And that is like so how I feel about book writing, which is like, well, on day one, I have the vibes, and then I have whatever slop like I generated in Scrivener, and it's like not a match, right? And every day I show up trying to sort of like raise the bar, and you're certainly not there at the end of the first draft. I I usually start to see it around the end of the second. I'm like, this is starting to look like what I wanted. Um, and like the long-term, like the dopamine hit you get around like month 15 when you're like, it's the shape, like, right? Where it's like after just like a year plus of like tiny excavation, um, it's it's like finally starting to match that is very, very exciting. Like it's such a long-term, like long-term goal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

You feel like at this point, now that you're and not that these are your only two books you've ever written, clearly. We've all written a lot more than like what comes out, but at this point, do you feel like as somebody who doesn't outline or doesn't plot, that you've kind of perfected the process at least of what you do?

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Well, I do, I do outline and I do plot. It's just that those things never give me what I think they're gonna give me. So, like, it's it's not a thing where it's like I often will find that at some point in a book, I do need to sit down and think about what's going to happen next long term, simply to know, but then I end up never writing those scenes. But it's like at some point I'm not able to just like go into the unknown. Um, but I've also found that like it's what what the outlining is different than sort of understanding your like central beats, right? Which I think are like, and uh that's why I'm such a big believer in that improvised first 50 pages, is often your characters will tell you where the book needs to go. They will like eventually, and it's like we've read enough and consumed enough like television to understand that at some point around 10 to 15%, someone's just gonna be like, let's make a list. Like, do you know what I mean? That like there's gonna be an inciting incident. And I have found that waiting for my characters to tell me who I've now spent 50 pages with or 30 pages with, waiting for them to tell me what this book is gonna be about, is better, is is is key, which isn't to say that I don't create a setup. Like for my my debut, I was like, I knew that I wanted a woman who was undergoing fertility treatment to find out that her husband was having an affair, and then I want her to get drunk immediately and show up at her old Jim Halpert's house, right? And just be like, let's see what happens, right? But it was like, but I wasn't like, okay, and then on page 200, they're gonna be in New York City, like right in three years ago or whatever. It was more like, oh, I've seen this film before. Like, right? It's like getting myself to a place where I'm like, okay, well, they obviously had a thing, so what is the story there? And then that is what I am unpacking. Um, so to me, I think like it's more that my first draft is my outline. And then then my second draft is when I when I'm in the driver's seat, and like I feel like I have more control of the story because I actually have less, like we talked about, because now I know my characters and I know what they want to do, and now I can start sculpting that story into something that is well paced and meaningful. Um, but it's like I do know what I do know for sure is that every book I start is a partial lobotomy.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

Embarrassing.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Yeah, like on day one, I'm like, I'm always on day one. I'm like, you know what I should do is outline. Like, even though every time I've outlined, right, it's like this has only gotten so much worse, you know? Um because I think that so much of writing is failing. So you're like, oh, I'm gonna outline this book into the ground, and then you're like, well, this is all trash. So I guess I'm not gonna go back and do this another way, or oh, I just outlined this and none of it works, or oh, like all of this has lost its heart because actually I should let what happens in scene C determine what happens in scene D. Not what me, somebody who was writing scene A, thought should happen 20 pages later after not being there, you know. But I think a lot of it is like it's it's like a really dynamic and challenging process because I keep getting better. Yes. Yeah, which is actually everyone's like, oh, it must make it so much easier.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

No, it's like you uh uncover new gifts.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

No, yeah. It's like, I mean, it's like I used to just be able to write for three months, like and if something didn't make sense, I don't know, because I didn't know it didn't make sense, and now I'm like on page three of writing a new book, and I'm like, well, I was like, if her mother went to Emery in 1960, wouldn't she know like this grandfather from this other thing? And wouldn't that affect their social status in the town? And so, how could he just show up at her house? And it's like, oh, like I have found these plot holes that normally would take me five or six months to find, and I am finding them almost upon first thought. And so, like a lot of that like heavy lifting that used to happen in the second draft is happening sooner, and it can feel really discouraging. Like where a first draft used to feel like really good vibes, and as like everyone's flirting, I'm making stuff up, like this feels amazing, and some of like the hard work has started to sneak in sooner, and it's made first draft actually like a real drag for me. Um, but it has made second and third drafts like kind of magical because I feel um, you know, like the whole the whole crux of novel writing is like you can't write anything until you understand the story, and you can't understand the story until you've written the whole book. So you figure it out, you know? And it's just like, and one you just so I think for me having done this, I mean three times now that I've gotten to the end of the story and then had like people be like, it's good, you know, um, is just being like, oh, you just trust that you have created back to like where we started. Like if you have created dynamic, powerful, interesting, flawed characters who have made mistakes and continue to make mistakes and have a lot to learn and a lot to do to grow, then I just have to believe that I'm good enough at this that I'm gonna get them there in a way that is interesting and hot and special. Um it's hot. Mostly because I mostly because I have so much ADHD that I'm like, yeah, if I'm no longer getting dopamine, I'm gonna be doing something else. So like it's that is my litmus test. If I'm like still interested, that I'm like, okay, this must be all right. But I think I I really think that that is like the thing that I have come to believe is that like um I'm less concerned about concept. I am more concerned about like two nuanced people grading against each other and like seeing what comes out. Um, because like that's almost the one thing I can guarantee. Does that make sense? Does that make any sense? It actually makes so much sense.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

I love it. And we I'm so glad because we went into this episode just being like usually sometimes we have the hook, right? Sometimes we'll be like, we need to do an episode on writing your second book. Okay, who are we gonna get for this one? And this one I was like, I just want to talk to her, and I feel like we're gonna pull the hook out of the episode, which is like exactly what we are just pull. I was like, I feel like something's gonna just come out of this episode like super naturally and immediately exactly what you do, so it worked out super well.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

So um like I can't tell you how much it resonated with me and like my very type A controlling I need to plan out like every situation in my life, like option A through Z. Um to hear you say that like outlining is okay, but it's also okay to chuck it out the window when you've like uncovered a little gem almost like from what your characters are showing you.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Yeah, and the outline is really good for pacing, right? Because you're like, you know, oh, conflict needs to happen, but like if you guys can fight about anything that makes sense is fair game, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I love I love outlining because yeah, I get like way too carried away. I'm like, I want to dig in deeper. Like, you wanna like you wanna have a fight about this? Let's double down on that shit. So you know, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

I've always wondered because I my my issue with outlining, other than all of the issues that I have vomited into this podcast, is that once a scene is compressed, I have trouble expanding. Oh. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, well, if I know the point of the scene, why am I writing that? That is but that is my chief issue with outlining, is like, oh, you've already told me why it matters. So what are you just gonna yap yap at each other for four pages and then get to the point that I already know? And this is me as a writer because we're all different creative creatures. It's that like I have such a dopamine deficiency that if I need to find the thing at the bottom of the treasure chest, like a rabid dog. Do you know what I mean? Like I'm like right. And I think that other people can know that it's there and do it. But for me, like I'm always looking for like that like that like four-leaf clover. And it's like that thing that I'm just like, I just believe that it's there. And then there are definitely times where I'm like, well, turns out it wasn't there for nine chapters.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

Like, well, yeah, I mean that's why I asked you about process, because with this, my debut, I don't, I the same, I'm the same way. I just sit down, I do it, it's cathartic, I write what I need to, whatever I need to write that day, and then it takes me wherever it takes me. But it took me fucking 10 years to to do it. It could be like well now I I've had just had this life experience. And so that can I feel strongly about I'm gonna put that in here and I have something to say about this. So then now with the the second book, I'm just like, I need to take some fucking control over this process because this takes me 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Yeah, I mean, it's true, and it's a real business question. There's a very good book on this by a literary fiction author named Matt Bell, and he wrote a craft book called Refuse to Be Done. And it talks about the exploratory draft, then the second draft, and then the third, right? And all of those are not really one draft, it's over and over and over again until you've you've got it. Um, I'm a big believer in that. I do think that like with my first, I've overexplored. Like we said, where it was like, I I do think that like with time you do get better at being like, okay, like I kind of know when they're going off track or when I am generating duplicate scenes. That was always right, and that's the big thing. It's like, oh, I'm a funny person. So if they thought of something funny, they will think of something else funny to say later. Like there are jokes that are very funny that have been killed, but often it's that, right? Of being like, oh, I am not learning anything new about this scene, and it is not like about these characters, and it is not moving the story forward. I need to go back and get back on track. Even if I don't know what the track is, I know that this is a duplicate, right? Um, and I think like that is the fastest way. And I think there is you do lose something in that because I went off track so much in my debut. I really felt like I knew Nicole and Logan too well because I had so many deleted scenes with them that I had all of this lore. So it's not useless. Like it can show back up in like these other conversations or whatever, but it is not the story, right? And I think Matt Bell does a really good job in this craft book about del teaching you to sort of remove whatever is not the story. And that's really a second tract.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

Yeah, and it's it always felt to me like um that that saying about accessories. I don't know who said it, Chanel or somebody's a little bit. Yes, intelligently. Yeah, when they're like, when you're leaving the house, like remove one accessory. That's literally how I feel about my writing. I'm like, okay, I need to remove one of these characters. This is too many, like a character needs to go, this needs to be simplified, or like because you aren't yeah, it's a great book for you.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

He talks a lot about that, where he's like, and he talks about not fixing it right away, which I think is very difficult for us perfectionists. But it's one of those things he's like, you're gonna have to change everything anyway, just continue. And it makes me sick, it makes me so sick, and I can't do it in my first act. My first act have, but at some point I get so tired that I stop, and then when I'm changing it all in the second, I'm always like, stupid, Matt Bell was right again. Like, I didn't need to be changing any of this because I changed it all anyway.

SPEAKER_01 39:57

My god, like I feel so like I feel totally.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Yeah, that that would just got you, gotten you from the inside because it's just like it's so and I have a whole list. I'll send you guys my list of like my Minecraft books that I'm obsessed with. None of them are romance craft books. Totally fine. Which I think sort of is fun because most of us, if you're a romance writer, like, well, you've just read so much romance that you're like, I don't know what to do. And then these are books that are just really talking about character and writing and the act of like, I mean, Magdal talks about putting every word in your book on trial for its life, which is like I love drama. So I just think that's like such a sexy and serious way of thinking about our manuscripts. But my debut was 118,000 words before I got it before I queried it. And I didn't change the story at all, and I got it down to 98, like without changing the story, like which means that uh a more consolidated version of that story that I could tell that was better because it didn't need to be 480 pages long, right? And um, and like that that was not I maybe I cut maybe a f like paragraphs here and there, but that was mostly done on a line level over time. Like I didn't cut chapters. Um, and so like there's sort of like unlimited things that we can do out there, I think, to to improve our work, which is both very terrifying and very empowering. You can't do it all. So you just like read a few of these things and you take what you can. And I don't know, I hit like a, I wouldn't say a bottom, but I hit like a I was I really struggled creatively at some point with the creation of Tropesic because I I was pretty sure it was going to be published, and that the fear of perception was starting to change my creative process. And it was like more interesting to go see if I had been tagged on any good reviews on Instagram than to focus on my own craft. And I remember one night I was like really struggling, and I put my kid to bed, I told my husband to go away, and I just like I came into my office and I made tea and I turned on the lights and like I put on a record and I put on like the twinkle lights, and I was like, you need to romanticize the hell out of writing this book because like you are living the dream, like this is what you have wanted as a little girl. You are a published author, like you are creating something that did not happen, like like you are writing a book. Um, and like shut up, like shut up and enjoy it. And I think so much of it is like like when I feel pressure or when I feel scared, or when like the answer is not like more internet. The answer is like going back to the art. Do you know what I mean? And it's hard because it's like it's it's harder work, but like to like pinch yourself and realize that you are like you that I like that I that I get to be a storyteller and like and that is a huge privilege. And to like, like, you know what I mean, and like to show up for that and like whatever Taylor Swifty and way you wish, like is like a good perspective shift, you know, as someone who sobs at the keyboard like multiple times.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

Why am I crying almost? That's why we made this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

Thank you for for putting it in that frame because Yeah, well, you guys are here romanticizing the art of it because I think and and I'm sure we're over because I don't show it. But like it's like it's it's it it is like the one thing I think, like in this publishing world where it's like someone gets this and you don't, and you get this and someone doesn't, and this and that, and this and that, and Barnes and Noble and this and right, and it's just like all of this stuff. And it and and and I talked about this on a podcast as on last week too. But like at the end of the day, it's you and the blank page. Like that's that is the relationship. That is it, like that's the art. rest of it is a business and like and like we as artists like you have to protect the spark right and to me you protect the spark through continuing education right like but like really like you you protect the spark by like listening to music that moves you or reading a book that you're like I need to I need to level up like I'm so inspired right or like it's like by and and like you know and and I need to like practice what I what I preach with that which is like I am at my happiest when I am reading a novel that blows my mind. And then and then like and the only thing and like and that is matched only by like I don't know arcing my characters right like or that feeling we talked about of like finally seeing that your book is the shape that you hoped that it would be right like those sorts of feelings and like just um like learning how to protect all of that in this world is like that's the job you know yeah that's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 45:03

I I'm I I could talk to you for another two hours so like we are I'm gonna I'm gonna put a hard stop on it so that we don't take any more of your time. I will say like if if if you are your happiest when you're reading a book you are the same as so many of us and you are gonna make so many people happy with this book.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Like it is hopefully nothing matters literally it was the art belongs to you now. Thank you thank you for the art because it was it is a joy for having me it was a joy it was fun I have my little I just realized I have my little romance I'm like so fanatic today I'm ready. It's a you're right up I'm a really unhappy person so like my whole house is like decorated like like by someone who is like deliriously happy I think to like just raise so I'll be like I'll be like crying in bed and there's like a pillow on the other side of the room that's like yay yay needle point but you know what can you do?

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Oh my god I feel that so much I want to be your best friend like obsessed I I don't even I don't even know how to articulate how much I needed that she made it so easy she's so easy to talk to well not only that but like what she said was so insightful and it's so like tangible so normal yeah totally totally normal and I'm totally grounded and normal and like it's like it shouldn't she's one of us she's one of us one of us this has been another episode of Marks in Manuscript.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Thanks for listening your hosts are Jen G Judith Kate Winnelovich our writer and public relations manager it's Kate Wynelovich music by John Wynelovich editor Jenna G. Judith Creative Direction Jenna G Judith and our podcast manager Kate Wynelovich don't forget to like follow subscribe all that jazz visit our website at marksmanuscripts.com and don't forget to hit that subscribe button